Free yourself from 'Good Girl' conditioning with Dr Michelle McQuaid
Dr. Michelle McQuaid joins me in this episode to dive deep into the concept of "good girl conditioning" and how it impacts women's mental health and well-being. We explore the societal expectations that shape our beliefs from a young age, often leading to exhaustion and a sense of emptiness, despite achieving external markers of success.
Dr. McQuaid shares her personal journey of discovering these patterns and the research that highlights how they manifest in our lives, particularly for women. Together, we discuss practical strategies for breaking free from these constraints.
This conversation is not just enlightening; it’s a call to action for all of us to step into our authentic selves and support each other in that journey.
Connect with Chelle:
www.thegoodgirlgamechangers.com
Connect with Cass:
Email: hello@crappytohappypod.com
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2025 Cassandra Dunn
Cass
This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn. I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappy to Happy books.
In this show I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy. Foreign so excited to bring you a conversation with Dr. Michelle McQuade.
Shell is one of Australia's most prominent thought leaders in the well being space.
She's a best selling author, teacher, researcher and she has built an enormously successful career building thriving workplaces, flourishing schools and stronger communities.
On a personal level, Shell came to realize that she had spent much of her life struggling under the very heavy expectations a good girl achieving all the external markers of success, having the lovely home and the family and the career. But she realized that while she was collecting all of those shiny symbols of success, she was exhausted and she was feeling empty.
And she realized that this early conditioning about what it means to be a good girl had led to her sacrificing her own mental health and well being. And so she embarked on her own healing journey.
But being the researcher that she is, she also sought to uncover how this good girl conditioning, how these early beliefs that we form govern our lives and ultimately influence our mental health and our sense of self.
So she has focused her research more recently on liberating women from these destructive patterns through evidence based practices and tools that will help women to shed that good Girl conditioning and step into their most authentic selves. I know this is a topic that is going to resonate with so many of you. Here is my chat with Shel Shell. Welcome to the Crappy the Happy Podcast.
Chelle
Thanks for having me.
Cass
I think that you and I have a lot of mutuals. You know, like I see your name everywhere.
I think I've always known of you being kind of in the positive psychology space, maybe coaching space. So it's lovely to meet you in person.
Chelle
It's great to have this conversation with you.
Cass
But what you're doing now is you've launched this Good Girl game changers, which I'm fascinated by. I would love to know what is that all about? What inspired this Good Girl movement?
Chelle
Yeah, well, as Cass, as you mentioned, I've spent the last sort of 20 years in the positive psychology space trying to understand the science of human thriving and this fascinated me, particularly from a workplace lens. I was in big companies at the time.
I stumbled across this doing a lot of brand Work around living values and culture and trying to bring out the best in our people. And when I stumbled across the science of positive psychology, it was the first time I understood that, that there was a science to human thriving.
I was like, this would have been really helpful to know before now.
And so I then spent the last 20 years in workplaces and schools and communities working around how do you help people build those skills of human thriving? And having a lot of fun doing it.
But I kept bumping up along the way, Cass, to even when people could understand the insights, they were like, yes, I want to use my strengths more. I want to have more of a growth mindset where I can learn. I want more self compassion. I want these things.
And yep, you're giving me lots of helpful tools. I used to say, I just want the stuff so I know how to do this. And we were doing all of that.
But for so many of us, despite our best intention and tools, it was often hard to consistently apply it. And when we started unpacking, like what's underneath that, what gets in our way?
We kept coming across these very deeply seated beliefs that are often placed for many of us a really early age. We find between about the ages of 4 and 11 in our research and they're around the societal expectations that we believe.
You know, we're often probably told by our parents at school, maybe religious circles, sporting groups, things like that, that that was how we would earn love. And for girls that was very much through this idea of be a good girl, you know, and for guys it's more around be a tough guy.
And so it's just fascinating, I think, as to then see all these decades later, we're growing up kick ass adults and we're still often struggling to break free of these beliefs. And particularly with women, which again I identify as a woman. So for me there was a lived experience about how this had played out in my own life.
I became fascinated as a human thriving researcher as to what role these gender expectations played. And if you started to make the invisible visible around them, might that help people care for their well being and thrive more consistently?
Cass
That's so interesting.
And interestingly because I do work in, you know, similar space and I'm, I'm a coach and I've run online programs and I also was in that role of kind of teaching people the tools and the skills. And a couple of years ago it just struck me very clearly that so many women struggle with imposter syndrome. And I realized that this is just this.
Pretty sure if we were to discuss it, it would be essentially the same thing that you're talking about. It's. I got to the same point, like, none of this is landing until we address this other issue.
Chelle
Yeah, yeah.
Cass
So you have then put a lot of energy into really researching what's going on here, particularly for women. And so we as women, conceptually, we kind of instinctively understand what that good girl conditioning is.
But what actually is it like in your research? What have you identified as sort of the core components of good girl conditioning?
Chelle
Yeah. So, Cass, I have to confess, I'm a data nerd at heart and I love the research.
And so, you know, this was really, it was coming up a lot in my own life around a couple of things. And I was like, is this just me? Is this just a Michelle thing?
So I do whatever I do when I come up against those things and I go, go out and I say, hey, anybody else feel this way?
And so we put out an open call just over a year ago and said, look, if this good girl stuff resonates with you at all, we'd love to learn more about what does it mean for you? How does it show up? What impact does it have, good and bad? Is there an alternative to it? What does that look like?
And we were blessed with hundreds of women came and joined us for these research groups to talk exactly about those things.
And then we've gone on and quantified through to verify it through quantum quantitative data as to does this consistently play out when we look at it at a population level?
And so what those women told us is, yeah, often between the ages of about 4 and 11, often from well meaning family members who are trying to keep us safe at the time, maybe also trying to make their lives a bit easier. Like be a good girl and just sit down and be quiet.
We got this idea and there were three factors in the research CAS that kept coming up for the women. And I think you're right.
I think for those of us who have connected in the past with the idea of feeling like an imposter, you'll find some resonance here. So the first one, Cass, is that need to perform perfectly, that in order for love to be learn earned, we have to be ticking all the boxes.
The way we look, the way we work, the way we live, the way we love. I don't know about you, Casp, if you were to come to my house, the half an hour before you got there would be frantic cleaning and scrubbing. 100%.
Cass
I use that example all the time myself. That's what I say.
Chelle
I'm like, as if you care, you know, But I know that it's dirty and I think it is and it has to be perfect before you can walk in my front door. So this was a big one for many of us. The second factor was around pleasing others. And I think most of us can relate to this.
And what really struck me in the research, talking to the women is they talked about the fact that they feel that they're so worried that they will be called selfish if they dare to prioritize their self care or set boundaries with people. And so therefore we try to give and give and give to everybody else until there's nothing left for us.
And the third factor was around protecting everybody.
And this one gave me goosebumps at the time when the women were talking about it, Cass, because they talked about how they silenced themselves in order to try to protect everybody else.
And whether that was just don't make a fuss, don't rock the boat, don't be difficult through to the silencing that we see goes on around sexual assault and all sorts of other challenges that women are grappling with.
And so these three factors, so we talk about them as performing perfectly, pleasing others and protecting everyone were what consistently came up as these good girl behaviors. And I'm with you, I think of it like a mindset.
It's like this deep conditioning of our brains at such an early age where we probably didn't know how to filter those things.
And because it's still sitting there invisibly in us and it still gets reinforced in society all the way around us, like surround sound, it can be really challenging to break free of them even when we're grown ass adults 100%.
Cass
And you know, it's like I use the, the analogy too of like the fish doesn't see the feel the water, you know, like it's just so ingrained and entrenched in us that we often not even aware of it until we become aware of it. It's so interesting that you talk about that clean up the house example because what I always say too is that it's.
It occurred to me that when somebody was coming over and I did that mad running around and Cleaning up for 30 minutes, my husband, that would never occur to him, not at all. Right. And, and like what's going on there and why couldn't I let it go? But it didn't bother him.
And now the conclusion that I came to was that rightly or wrongly, if anybody was to judge the state of my house. Not that they would, I don't think, but if anybody was to judge the state of my house, I reckon they'd be judging me. It would be.
Chelle
Yeah.
Cass
Right, yeah. And that's a real thing.
Chelle
Absolutely.
Cass
Because that is the expectation still.
Chelle
Yeah.
Cass
At whatever unconscious level, that's. That, that's on me, like, that's on the woman.
Chelle
Yeah. And yeah, the hard part, Cass, is that.
And again, you know, looking at the research, I'm in my 50s now, is like, surely this is just like I grew up in the 70s. This is just an old fashioned, outdated thing.
But Cass, the scary thing is we see for women at 18 to 24, 70 of them in the Australian population feel the most need to conform to these good girl expectations still.
So it's not something that's gone away because again, it's certainly sort of, you know, somebody that grew up in the 70s, maybe you judge my house because my generation thought you had to do that and have a career. Surely that's not the way for our young women now. It absolutely is still the case, unfortunately.
Cass
Yeah.
So when women are carrying this conditioning with them and when this is kind of influencing how they are in life and at work, what are the impacts of this?
Chelle
Yeah. So one of the things that the women talked about was that in the short term there can be benefits to it. Right.
Somebody came over to your house, it was all clean. They said, wow, you should see how good Cass keeps a house. She is on top of things. She's got her life all figured out. Right.
Cass
So together.
Chelle
Yeah, so together. So the women over and over talked about, look, in the short term, we actually get rewards from it. That's why this can be so hard to break free of.
We get the pats on the head, the nods of encouragement, the look at you, oh, you're so giving to everybody else.
Cass
Superwoman.
Chelle
Absolutely. She's got it all together. But long term, the women talked about. And this really starts to kick in as women get towards the 30 to 40 year age group.
We found they start, of course, to become exhausted trying to keep up with all of this. They also start to feel really resentful about everybody else. Like the husbands that aren't cleaning up while we're running around.
And they also start to feel lost as to who am I if I'm not trying to be who everybody else expects me to be. And so, you know, at best, this leads to some exhaustion, feeling a little lost, feeling a bit resentful and angry about what's going on.
At the far extreme though, we see how this sets in place patterns of addiction, of self harm, of suicidal ideation, how it can traps us into cycles of poverty and domestic violence as well and sexual assault.
And so again, the women really were very clear as to how they felt this good girl grooming that they had gone through as children and continue to have a long tail impact in some cases, and my own included, really serious impact in our lives.
Cass
Yeah. Wow. So there's this disconnection with. From themselves is the thing that I hear often as well. And so how do we start to uncondition this?
Like what do we do?
Because the other thing, in fact you can speak to this as well, is that what we find is if that women just decide, okay, well, I'm not going to be the pleaser and I'm going to not going to be the perfectionist. I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm going to go in and behave like a man might. They're not rewarded for that either. Like they're actually.
We know from the research that they are essentially punished for doing that, which leaves them in a bit of a bind.
Chelle
Absolutely.
Cass
So what's the answer?
Chelle
Yeah, and so I think it's really important to acknowledge here that there's not one answer that is going to fit everybody. We think of this as a continuum. And if we think at one end of these kind of good girl behaviors at the other end.
What we found in the research was what the women defined as being uniquely you. So being uniquely themselves.
So it wasn't necessarily behaving like a man, but it was honoring who they felt they were when they are aligned and in their integrity and living their values.
And they absolutely talked about, look, if I stop doing this good girl behavior, at least in the short term, a lot of people are not very happy about that. You know, it's much easier for everybody else around me often if I'm conforming to these expectations in the short term.
And so the women talked about though.
But if I move past that initial upset, disagreement, discomfort, judgment that other people might have because I left my house messy and you came over Cass, then what happens on the other side of that is I actually have higher levels of well being.
I am more likely to feel like I'm authentically being myself and I have much healthier relationships because instead of just settling for fitting in, which is what I get when I do all those good girl behaviors, now I actually know that I belong.
And we differentiate this, Cass, a bit like junk food love, when I'm being in those good girl behaviors might feel like you love me, but they're pretty short sugar hits, and I have to keep earning it over and over again. And coming off those sugar highs of junk food is kind of like I'm crashing down. And then I have to.
Again, I think where so much of the imposter work comes in, I have to feel like I need to prove my worth all over again. Whereas when we're over here in Uniquely you, we talk about it as being a more nutritious love.
It's like it doesn't always taste great at the beginning, beginning, but once I develop a taste for it, it's hard to go back to the sugar. And it's kind of. It's nurturing me from the inside out.
Cass
Yeah, I love that. I love that.
And I was thinking as I was reading through your work that what I see is either this, like, completely conforming to the good girl Persona almost, or this almost, like, rebelling against it, but in a way that's not actually that authentic either.
Chelle
Absolutely.
Cass
This, like, rebelliousness, that's actually just. It's. It's also not who you really are. So I love this idea of being uniquely you.
As you said, many women, because of all of the roles that they play and the performing and the pleasing and the putting everybody else before themselves, like, they have become very disconnected from who they are. So it's almost like, well, who am I underneath this? So how do women. How do you suggest that women start. Start to reconnect with themselves?
Chelle
So one of the most important and simple things we found was women that started to, one, understand, oh, I've got a bit of this good girl beliefs kind of seated in me somewhere. Is it serving me well? And look, if it's serving you well right now, then by all means, stay over there.
That's not negatively impacting your wellbeing in your relationships. My view is it's not for me or anybody else to tell you that's the wrong place for you to be.
I think we're seeing a trend on social media around trapped wives, for example. And so, again, if that is meaningful, joyful, it's supporting your wellbeing. To me, that is your choice to make and nobody else's to judge.
If, however, these good girl beliefs and behaviors are not serving you so well, you are feeling exhausted, bit pissed off, with everybody feeling lost as you're saying, then the simplest thing we find once we start to become aware of that is to start asking two questions, and that is on whose Terms for whose benefit am I making this choice in terms of how I'm going to act next? And what we like to point out there is it's rarely ever just going to be all on my terms and only for my benefit.
Because we are social creatures, we want to belong, we need to feel love from each other. So it's going to be a bit of me in that and a bit of you in that and a bit of give and take in that. What it can't be is always at my cost.
And unfortunately for many women, these good girl expectations and the mindsets they seed for us starts to become always at our cost, always at our cost, always at our cost. And that is not sustainable for anyone. And why so often, sort of that 30 to 35 age group, we start to see women breaking down.
Cass
Yeah. When women start to make steps towards speaking up, for example, if they've traditionally not.
If they've not expressed their real opinion or even just, you know, speaking up in the workplace, what I have come to, and I know you have as well, is like...
there is a level of nervous system reaction here because women have been, you know, we have reason to fear, whether that's generationally or just what we see in the world. Like there is a real fear of repercussion. Like it's like almost this being frozen. And I know I should and I really want to, but I...
And no amount of telling myself that this is what I should be doing and I need to be speaking up and I need to be more confident and be myself. That's not cutting it because there is something else going on. So how do women start to address that?
Chelle
Yeah, so I think it's really important to understand that one of our brain's most fundamental jobs is to keep us safe. And the brain does that because if we're not safe, then we're at risk. And, you know, the brain is always trying to keep us alive.
And so I like to imagine kind of at the base of my skull, I've got like this safety dial going on and it's constantly as information comes into me going safe, unsafe, safe, unsafe.
And that's impacting my nervous system and whether at the simplest form I'm in connection, I'm feeling safe, my brain's kind of integrated, I can think clearly, flexibly, be articulate with. You have healthy debate where I need to advocate for myself.
Whereas when I feel unsafe and my protection circuit comes online, then I may be up regulating into my.
We think about it as the red zone, or you were talking on a recent episode, like the two hotels hot part, everything gets urgent and overwhelming or I'm in my blue zone, my too cold part, and then I'm fine, you know, and I'm not going to talk about any of it sort of thing. So while it's helpful to know is my connection or protection circuit kind of online, that's how I like to think about it in the simplest way.
Like, am I integrated right now in my brain and able to show up or am I not?
Of course, if I'm not, then trying to have that conversation in a workplace, I'm not ready, I'm not there to be able to show up, to do that in an effective way. Now there's two things to also know about this, I think super helpful for us.
One is that our brain is overly sensitive to what is potentially a threat for us. So we tend to estimate things as being worse for us than they often are. So how do we calm that down? We can talk about some strategies.
And again, I know you've had great podcasts with Ann Kelly and other guests around this for your listeners as well. But then secondly, also the other thing I love, Dr.
Amy Edmondson's from Harvard, who does all the psychological safety research, talks about the fact that our brains do a bit of faulty maths when it comes to safety and we look for short term solutions only without calculating their long term cost. So being quiet in that example might feel like the safest thing short term for me. So my nervous system wants me to do that, but it doesn't estimate.
Well, if I don't say something now, what is that cost gonna be? 2, 312 months down the line? Actually, if I see that cost, speaking up right now feels much better.
And this is how we often find for women, that choice between the junk food or the nutritious love comes into play to go.
Well, yeah, you could snack on sugar right now, that will feel safe and immediate for you, but it's not gonna feel awesome, you know, not far beyond this. Whereas if we do the nutritious thing, it might not feel immediately gray, but the benefits of this are much better for us.
Cass
Yeah, that's, I love that. And also I think if you feel that it's not safe now, like, and I can't for whatever reason do that. Okay, right. It's that self compassion, isn't it?
Because that's the other thing, the self criticism, it's so loud for, for women. Yeah.
Chelle
Yeah. We found for the women that are able to be more uniquely Themselves consistently.
There were really three skills in the research that made that possible for them. The first is self compass fashion. It's being able to meet ourselves as the wise and kind friend.
We're often so good at being for everybody else, but doing that for ourselves. So when that inner critic shows up, just sort of, hey, it's okay. No, you're worried. I know you're scared.
Let's just sit down here and unpack this for a little bit and think about it. The second skill was around secure attachment. So the work of Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott, her partner.
And really how do we understand our nervous system system in a way that we can feel securely attached to ourselves?
So while of course a lot of secure attachment has looked at parents and our emo and our romantic partners, this is really more about how am I attached to me so that I can show up for me, I can advocate for me, I can keep me safe.
And then the third piece was around self leadership and self here with the capital S that we see in the internal family systems work around knowing that we all have this self energy that is curious and creative and compassionate and courageous and clear and connected. We can all tap that energy within us.
We've all had those moments, but we often sort of push it to the side in the effort of other parts of us trying to protect us and keep us safe. That again, often triggered all the way back in those early childhood experiences and just haven't had a chance to grow along with us yet.
But we can do that work so that we're not unintentionally protecting ourselves from things that perhaps aren't real threats to us anymore.
Cass
That self leadership. I've only recently kind of.
I've not done training in internal family systems, but I've only recently kind of started to explore this idea of different parts. And it's such powerful work, isn't it? It really is connecting with a part of you.
And I even just did like a really brief on this podcast, like a really brief exercise of like just connecting with this younger part of you. And I had so much feedback, had so many people contacting me about how powerful they found that exercise.
Is that something that people can kind of learn to just do for themselves or is that something they need to go and see a specialist IFS therapist or, you know, because I feel like people, you know, women, everybody really just really benefits from what parts work is really all about.
Chelle
Yeah. So I think this is a yes. And Cass, again, for each person to kind of navigate the Path that's right for them.
Our new book, the perfectly imperfect Women's Journal, has a whole section around internal family systems tools. And I know there are a few other popular books starting to come out now.
And so yes, to a certain extent, these are skills that we can build for ourselves. And particularly when it comes to starting to access some of those parts of us that are more wounded.
What we call in the internal family systems work, our exiles where those kind of deep, perhaps past traumas may be being held.
That work definitely is better to be done with an IFS coach or therapist because initially, while we're getting used to that self energy, building our confidence that we can access those clear and calm and curious and creative parts of ourselves, IFS talks about it as these eight Cs. While we're still building that energy up.
A therapist or a coach can be a great support, not least because they get to bring that self energy, their energy to help you.
But also, particularly as you're starting to move past the parts of you that protect you or the parts of you perhaps that like to distract or blow up the world when things aren't going well for you, we find these beautiful, tender, raw, vulnerable exiles sitting behind them. And that work definitely can benefit from a coach or therapist to support us. But Cass, I love.
There's a really simple exercise called move towards your parts that's one of my favorites, I think any of us can do. It has three simple steps. The first is to notice. So just starting to observe your parts.
And if you're not used to this part language, you'll already know. Oh, I have a part of me that's really critical. I have a part of me that goes crazy and cleans the house 30 minutes before somebody comes over.
So we all have these different parts of us within us. Sometimes it's just not language we've used in that way before.
And so when I'm noticing a part cast, I might sit like in my morning meditation or if I'm journaling or going for a walk and I'm kind of, I'm tuning into my body. I'm like, okay, what part of me today needs me to just listen for a little bit?
What are those thoughts or emotions, feelings in my body that are happening? And then I just check, well, how am I feeling towards that part?
So the way I know I've got self energy to be able to talk to this part is I'm not feeling angry and pissed off about it. One of the things I love about internal family systems is that we Take a view.
There are no bad parts that even the parts we might not be that happy about right now, they actually serve a point. They're always trying to keep us safe and look after us as best they could.
So if we're feeling kind of not so happy with that part, then we might just say, okay, maybe that's something to work with my therapist or coach in. But if we're kind of like, you know what, I'm kind of curious. Why does that part clean the house 30 minutes before somebody arrives?
Is it okay back there? Does it need a hand?
Then we can move to our second step, which is to get to know that part and say, well, you know, what do you want me to know about you? You know, when did you first start feeling the need to clean the house 30 minutes before people came over?
What are you worried would happen if you didn't protect me that way? As you were saying before, can I might be judged by other people as not being good enough.
And then our third step is need where we might just then think about that part. And often I like to do it with, where do I feel that part in my body? I might put my hand there to sort of soothe that area.
And I'll just say, well, what do you need from me in terms of support? Like, you know, do you know I'm like 51 years old now. I've got some resources and some knowledge.
You don't have to keep cleaning the house 30 minutes before someone arrives. And that's not doing it for you. Is there anything you need for support? What would make you feel safer before somebody comes?
What could we do next time that might assist you? So it's really just having these little conversations. Or again, journaling.
They could be thinking exercises, whatever works for us to notice, know and then understand the needs of these parts and how we now, as the grown ass adults we are, can perhaps reach back and help some of these younger parts of us grow up.
Cass
So helpful. I think listeners will, will love that.
They'll be frantically taking notes because that's, that's such a useful thing to do when we all know that feeling of inner conflict, like the tension and almost being at war with ourselves. So just that idea of what is this part? What does it want for me? Just that, like, what.
What's it trying to communicate or what's it trying to protect me from? Yeah, that in itself is so, so insightful, like, so powerful.
Chelle
I think so too, Cass. And I think part of that, if I can just add there, is that what Is it trying to protect me as you were saying? Right.
These parts always come online because they're trying to protect us as best they can at the age they tend to take shape and then to appreciate it. Yeah.
And just like I know I'm in my self energy when I can say to a part, thank you, like, and even the parts I don't love, the way that they're going about protecting me anymore, it's like, but thank you for trying. I appreciate that when I had no other choices, you stepped up and you have done your best to keep me safe and I'm grateful for that.
And it looks exhausting having to clean the house 30 minutes before someone comes. Do you want a hand with that or you're okay back there, like, no judgment. So. Yeah, it's a powerful tool.
Cass
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, like we're using the example of the cleaning the house, but I know people listening, you know, you could.
Why are you still editing that report at 11:00 at night? And why are you all of the things and the hoops and the. Why are you doing X, Y, Z that you know is not in your best interest? Like.
Yeah, then you can actually start to understand that instead of just being so judgy and critical of that and.
But not having an answer now, oftentimes when we start to become aware of this conditioning and we start to, you know, realize how much we've been silenced or shut down or how the expectations of us are different from men, it does set up this very potentially anti man kind of energy. Right. I see some people online, you know, in the public, very much down with the patriarchy and, and look, hey, I'm here for that.
Men get a better deal, I think, no question. But the whole system doesn't necessarily support men either, does it?
Chelle
No, not at all.
Cass
So how do we start to.
I don't know, I guess I'm just asking, like, does it benefit us maybe to just move away from that, them and us kind of thinking and be a bit more moderate understanding of the whole thing, not just our part in it?
Chelle
Yeah, definitely, absolutely. I don't think there's anything, there's no such thing as one way liberation, as Glennon Doyle likes to say. And I think that is so true. Right.
And the interesting thing for me, Cass, because I came to this work through that human thriving research lens. Many of these tools like self compassion, security, attachment, self leadership, these are not gendered tools.
The research over the last 30, 40 years have been going on in these areas, not with A gendered lens. So it's not that these tools to be uniquely you don't work as much for men as they do for women.
It's just where we started that the starting place for why men and women might come to them are a bit different.
And we were touching on earlier that just as women often, you know, by the age of 11 are starting to feel they need to conform to these good girl expectations, researchers like Dr.
Naomi Wade has found in her longitudinal studies around similar ages, boys are starting to learn that they need to be tough guys and that the only acceptable emotion really for them is anger and that it creates this crisis of connection for guys as they get older. And so I agree definitely I think we can point to patriarchy historically and the idea that in order to feel safe we were going to own land.
And part of, of getting land from other people was we were not just going to take the land, we were going to take their people, their women and their children.
And then we were going to have marriage to show that we had ownership of the women and we were going to grant the rights to our land through our sons so that we could continue our lineage. I mean again, this now is several centuries old, at least as a model.
And I think we can all safely say it's working for very few of us man or woman anymore. And that's not to say again that men don't in some ways benefit more from it continuing.
But I also, I don't know, I think you only have to look around the world to see the incredible pain that most men are in now, even when they're benefiting perhaps still from some of those areas. And again, think about that folding maths our brain does of what's keeping us safe versus the long term cost of it.
I think that as much as we need to help women break free of these good girl beliefs, we need to be having the compassion and the willingness to support our guys. Breaking free of the need to be tough guys.
Cass
Yeah, we're seeing now so much, I mean in politics, especially not to go off the track. It's relevant. But we see this polarization, don't we? Like we see these extremes in people's views and it's them or us.
And it feels like there is no communicating between the two. There is no room to connect and understand what's happening on either, on both sides. Like I'm just seeing it more and more.
Yeah, it about every topic. It's like you pick a side and that's your side and there's no Room for understanding what's happening on the other side. Yeah.
So I do, you know, I think it's so important that we be having a willingness to have conversations and have some understanding about the costs and benefits on both sides.
Chelle
I completely agree. And I think if we have a look on whose terms and for whose benefits is that divide being driven, it is certainly not for political gain.
I actually don't believe it is for commercial gain. When we look at the roles of people like Elon Musk. Musk, for example, are starting to play in politics in both the US and the uk.
You know, we look at things that are being seeded in countries like Australia around this, and the interesting things about our brain is that we have a compassion bias. That means we don't tend to extend compassion to people we view are not like us.
So there is a benefit in creating this divide and sustaining a them and us because we won't extend compassion in the same way if we can think that, hey, we're, we're all human beings here just trying to do the best we can to get through today. And there is real pain in that divide. And what happens for many of us when we're in real pain because we don't have the skills to navigate that pain.
We go shopping, we go binging, we. We do a whole lot of stuff that people have gotten really good at making money off, but it's actually not great for humanity as a whole.
And so I just think again, on whose terms, for whose benefit are we allowing this divide to happen and to know that within each of us we can get past our compassion bias by simply looking for the human and the struggle, the pain and the hope underneath the surface of these, I think often quite superficial arguments at the top of it.
Cass
Do you know, just on that, I was reading an article recently, a research article from like 2017, and it was American politics, but they took Democrats, Republicans, and they offered them money to listen to another person's point of view for like 15 minutes. And they were offered more money to listen to the opposing view for the 15 minutes or less money to listen to somebody on the same side.
And the vast majority of people chose the less money to listen to somebody on the same side that took less money.
Chelle
Yeah.
Cass
Rather than listen to somebody with a different point of view. It just made me think, what hope have we got?
Speaking of politics, many women like we on this good girl thing and, you know, the way women are conditioned to be, and it feels like we've made a lot of progress on that. Women being More included in conversations and workplaces and having a voice in every area of society.
Like, you know, we're uncovering that women have never been included in medical research. You know, everything has been based on a man.
And then you have somebody come in like Donald Trump for EG, who is really in a lot of his politics and a lot of his party politics are not in the service of empowering women, and women voted for him. That's just mind blowing for so many people. Why do women vote against their best interests?
Chelle
Yeah, well, I think we're coming back to this question of safety, right? And for some women, they truly believe that I am safer in a more patriarchal society.
I am safer with my husband as the head of the house, that somebody will be there to protect and look after me. I want that in order to feel like I am living a life that feels meaningful and right to me.
And whether that's for religious reasons or cultural reasons or economic reasons, I mean, the reality is it's only just over 50 years ago that women in America, in the UK and Australia could get a bank account without a male family member or husband signing for them. Right. It feels like it's been forever, but when we scratch the surface, surface, it's really not that long.
And so all of us are motivated to do things for safety.
And so I think the question starts to become, you know, how do you help women understand that, yes, there are elements of that that may be keeping them safe.
And again, my view is if that is your choice and that's on your terms, and you believe that's for your benefit, then my job is to listen and to respect that. Well, I continue to advocate, but if it's not, there are other ways and by chance it's not.
And you're just feeling like that's the safe choice because you haven't done the long term maths and played this through as to what might happen as you get older, then, you know, let me plant some seeds to offer some different paths for whenever you're ready for those things. But I do think we are in a very interesting cultural moment. I don't think what helps it is for us as women.
You know, I think here we can be the example of the change we want to see in the world and, and start talking to each other about, well, what makes that safe for you? This is what makes it unsafe for me. How do we make space for the end in that?
Because I do think women generally do a great job at holding space for complexity when we choose to. But I do think we often take what feels like the safest shortcut to safety. And for many of us, those are still quite traditional roles.
Cass
Yeah, that's such a good point. Like, and so useful to hold everything through the lens of we're always doing what we think is going to keep us safe.
And if you kind of see everybody's behavior through that lens, it is helpful in helping you have just a little bit more compassion for people who you might feel like you have, like, no common ground with. People act in their own. Well, they act in a way that.
Chelle
They think is in their own best interest.
Cass
It's going to keep them safe.
Chelle
Yeah. And so if we think back to the study about why did they take less money to talk to somebody that felt. Because they felt it was the safer option.
Cass
Right.
Chelle
And so again, I just think there's this really interesting question for us about what does safety look like? I have a little more hope, perhaps, Cass, in that.
What's, I think been interesting the last few years too, is also the far more open conversation on menopause and the changes that it brings for women and the fact that that is also surfacing that as our estrogen levels drop on the other side of menopause, for many of us in our research certainly supported this. Over 50 and then over 65 again, we feel less and less need to conform.
And so I also think we're in this amazing time for women like you and I coming through this stage are going, oh, yeah, menopause, we can talk about that.
And we don't care that so much that we're invisible, you know, for old reasons that we used to be seen as young women, you know, watch what we can do while you're not paying so much attention to us. So actually have great heart hope for the change that is happening and that that may free more women to talk more openly about their experience.
The thing we also found help women break free of those good girl beliefs was the role modeling and mentoring that they saw from other women.
So I think the more we can be out there having these conversations going, you know, what if it's working for you, fine, but if you're worried, sort of, or you want a different choice, there are options here and come to the other side. It's a lot of fun.
Cass
Yes, absolutely. And on that too, when you said the short term win versus the, the safety versus what's the long term cost?
I think what I see often get women over the line is the role modeling. You know, it's like, what is the. What Is the message that you're sending to your own daughter or younger women.
And again, I don't know, it taps into women's like doing something for others, but at the same time it kind of often will help them to think to make a different choice. Shell, you have created the most beautiful children's book for adults.
Chelle
A little subversive storybook, Cass, which I love.
Cass
So it's a. The Perfectly Imperfect little girl.
And alongside it the journal which you mentioned, which is amazing for practical tools, which I think, you know, I'm the. My audience is the same, like give me the tools, just tell me what I give me the stuff I need to do. I would love to know. I mean it's so genius.
But what, where did the inspiration come from?
Chelle
Yeah, it was a bit. Bit left a few. Cass. When I was a little girl, about four years old, my mum was a single mom.
We often didn't have a lot of money, but there was 40 cents left at the end of the weekly shop. You got to buy a book. She was a school teacher, so books were a precious thing in our house.
And on one of these occasions I chose this book that had a cover was bright yellow, a little hand drawn girl in the middle looking calm and serene, her hands folded over her stomach.
But around the edges the same little girl was in a whole lot of smaller poses as pulling her sister's hair and breaking a vase and hiding her head in shame in her hands. And I think I identified with all the little pictures. It was like that was very familiar, Cass.
And I was hopeful that maybe one day I would be the little girl in the middle. I couldn't read. And my mother picked up this book for me and she said, the good little bad little girl. Are you sure?
And I was like, yep, it's this book. And I made her read it over and over again for story time. And essentially the story was about all the ways the little girl was good.
She was quiet, she was tidy, she was polite. And then all the way she was bad. She was loud, she was demanding, she ate too much.
And the big surprise, literally at the end of the storybook was the big little girl. And sorry, the good little girl and the bad little girl were the same little girl.
But if you made the good little girl grow taller and taller and the bad little girl smaller and smaller, then you would be happy and loved. And so I think, Cass, it was my first self help book.
And about 10 years ago when I was doing some therapy and healing work, I was like, I have to find this book and I got it on ebay and you know, I was like, yes, it was as bad as I remember. And I stuck it in the cupboard. And then about two years ago, it kind of came out in some cleaning stuff. I was like, I need to rewrite this book.
But I decided that was what really sparked off some of the research and my own experiences at the time. And so, yeah, it came out just beautifully and we're so excited.
And the research of the women is all baked in there in protest posters in the illustrations, which we love.
Cass
It's perfect. And so Shel, just before you go, so tell me more about the work that you're doing. People want to find out more. Jump on board.
Get the perfectly imperfect little girl book in the journal. Where are you? Where can they connect with you?
Chelle
Yeah, head over to the Good Girl. Game changers dot com. It's a bit of a mouthful. Or you can just search for me. If you Google Michelle McQuaid, I'll pop up for you.
And we have a weekly podcast with different experts and women all over the world on these topics.
A weekly tool like the one we were talking about with the internal family systems work and a beautiful community of like minded women who are all out there finding ways to be uniquely themselves and role modeling that they're the books. And there are some little short online courses if you're wanting to go deeper.
Cass
Amazing. Such a pleasure talking to you.
Chelle
Thank you for having me.
Cass
Me Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me, Cass Dunn. If you enjoy the show, please hit the follow button wherever you listen to ensure you never miss an episode.
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