How I was Recruited into a Cult with Carli McConkey

Foreign.

This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course author of the Crappy to Happy books.

In this show I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy.

Foreign.

Welcome back to Crafter Happy.

My guest this week is Carly McConkey.

Carly was your average 21 year old, finished university, feeling a little bit unsure of her direction when she enrolled in a personal development course, which ultimately ended up being the pathway into a new age doomsday cult.

She then went on to spend all of her 20s and half of her 30s trapped and obviously spent many, many years afterwards recovering.

Carly was courageous enough to write a book about her experience, which ultimately led to her being sued for defamation by the cult leader.

And again, Carly was brave enough to face her in court and to win that defamation case.

I've been fascinated by the psychology of cults.

Like what leads people to join cults?

Why do they stay?

How do they get involved for a long time, which is why I was so interested to speak to a person who has actually had experience and was willing to talk about what they went through.

The other reason I'm really fascinated by this topic is because of the overlap that I see and that obviously exists between the psychology and the mindset of cults and conspiracy theories and the tribalism that exists in politics these days.

All of the us versus Them mentality.

I think that there is a lot here to be explored in more detail because I think it's really easy to sit back and to hear a story like Carly's and to think, well, that would never be me.

I would never be that foolish.

I would never let myself get into that situation.

Almost victim blaming, but also othering.

Whereas I think if we step outside of the direct experience and actually look at some of the reasons why this happens, our common human need for, for meaning, for a sense of identity, for a sense of belonging and purpose, our cognitive biases, our confirmation biases, the tribalism that we ourselves can get into.

I just think there is something in this for all of us.

For now, I'm just really grateful to Carly for her courage and for her honesty in sharing her story with me.

There is so much more to this story that we didn't go into.

Let's hear Carly's story.

Carly McConkey, welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.

Thank you Cass.

Lovely to be here Carly, you spent over a decade, many years in a cult experiencing some pretty harrowing abuse as we'll talk about about in a minute.

I'm really curious to go back to the beginning to understand where were you at in life generally and in terms of your psychology, you know, emotionally when you first encountered this organization.

Like what was your first experience of them?

I guess.

Well, I had finished university in about the November, December of the year before and it was May of the following year, so it wasn't even sort of six months.

And I had done communication at uni, public relations and I'd done internship and I just didn't know whether PR was for me.

So I was very unsure about my direction.

I had left school and gone to university in country New South Wales at Bathurst.

And so I'd been away from home for three years coming back and yeah, just very unsure about where I was at.

I, at that stage I was fairly sheltered and I hadn't had a boyfriend yet.

So you know, I was just, I had a bit of low self esteem, to be honest.

And also at the end of my first year of uni I had quite a shock.

My mum told me that she had adopted out a daughter as a baby and that her daughter had come back in contact with her.

And so I had a sister.

So that was a fairly traumatic experience in hindsight because, you know, just knowing that I'd sort of been lied to all those years, even though of course it's not something that you would talk about.

Yeah, just everything was quite unsettled and I had a lot of ambition and wanted to make a difference in the world.

I'd also been Catholic up until I was 19 and then I moved more into sort of the spiritual new age and started investigating that and reading a lot of books, et cetera.

And so I went to the Mind Body Spirit Festival in Sydney.

I went to have a psychic reading.

I'd had a couple before at uni and this particular psych reader told me that to reach my potential and have great relationships, find my direction in life, etc, I should do this course called the Next Evolutionary Step.

And she gave me a brochure and a tape and things like that and directed me to a stand at the Mind Body Spirit Festival.

And when I went there, that's where I found out about this particular course, which is really what I know now to be the recruitment process that they went through at that time doing psychic readings and healings at the Mind Body Spirit Festival.

So, so I chatted with some people on the stand and they told me that there was a free Stage One seminar at the Hilton Hotel which sounded very legitimate and promising in the June.

So I went to that and then heard the woman who was very charismatic at the front, who had designed the programs, who ended up being the cult leader.

She got people up who'd done the program and they all gave testimonials, et cetera, and.

And then straight away I just signed up to do the first course and that was in July.

So you were just out of uni.

You're like 2021.

That's just such a familiar kind of a story.

You know, I've been to the Mind Body Spirit Festival in Sydney.

I've probably had a psychic reading there.

Yeah, but that's so relatable.

When you went to that first introductory session.

Yes.

And then you chose to go on and do one of their courses.

Yes.

You took your mom.

I did.

I actually took my mom and my sister, my half s, you know, they wanted to come and support me.

You know, my mom actually said at the time, just to make sure it's not a cult.

Even though cults weren't very well known back then.

I remember her actually saying that.

And we did the first program and that was at a university in Sydney called Macquarie University.

So again, you know, supposedly very legitimate place.

It was a Thursday night, Friday night after work, it went to like 11pm at night and then you had to be back on the weekend on the Saturday and Sunday at 9am so full day Saturday, full day Sunday.

And then the Monday night was the graduation, as such.

And yeah, essentially what cults do is they recruit you.

Right.

Coercively and deceptively.

So, you know, I thought that I was doing this self development program that was a bit new age and that would help me reach my potential.

But once you, once they get you in, then they do what we call mind control techniques.

So that whole sort of five night, two day course was all long sessions where this woman up the front, the designer of the programs, would talk and lecture to us about all wonderful things, doing, you know, how to become psychic.

She spoke about crystals, she spoke about healing the planet.

We did a lot of meditation, we even did chanting, we did dancing every time we came in.

So you're in this really hyper mood.

We were put onto a vegan diet and juicing fresh fruit juice, about a liter, I think it was every day.

There's also techniques called like sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation.

So our sleep deprivation was, as I said, getting home.

And she gave us exercises that we had to do we had to listen to her meditation tapes.

And then the next morning we had to get up early and do lots of the juicing and get our food ready and things like that.

So already your sleep is lacking.

At that point, the sensory overload was just.

So many things were happening on that course.

We went through all these processes.

The biggest thing was what she termed accessing.

She said that we had to clear our cellular memory from this lifetime, our past lifetimes and our ancestors, so that we could make a better world for our children, that we would get our health better and reach that potential that we were there to do.

We had about 80 people in the cause.

And to do accessing, you had, she brought out these big black mats that were about 6 foot by 4 foot, those big gymnastic mats, and there was 80 people just banging and yelling and screaming and crying and all that sort of thing.

So it was really confronting for me.

And, yeah, there was one point where, you know, I was huddled up with my mum in a corner, and then the charismatic leader who became the cult leader said something like, you know, why are you doing that?

You need to take responsibility for yourself.

And already she was separating me from my mum.

So, you know, in cult structures, from the very beginning, it's divide and conquer.

Separate you from your family, your friends, and just really hone you on relying on that cult leader for everything.

You know, you no longer rely on yourself.

You look to them for all your answers to everything.

Yeah, so there's a lot about that that almost can sound valid, some of those things.

But then there's all of this other stuff interwoven.

Exactly.

And then what happened was at the end of that course, because our systems or our bodies and our mind, emotions were just everywhere.

Like, we felt a lot lighter because we'd gone through all of that sort of purging of emotions and things like that.

We're at such a heightened stage, but we also still had a lot of fear and we still had those sort of.

That feeling of sort of heaviness as well.

And she said things like, to evolve, you need to continue to do these programs and I can help you.

You know, I am the way.

And so that was the July, and then I signed up for a course for September, which was called Universal Healing, which was at her property in northern New South Wales.

And that was a Friday night and all weekend course, which I did.

I did that by myself.

Then I signed up to one in the October, which was only a month later called the Final Step.

And that was where the real mind Control techniques were really supplanted and just thoroughly.

The foundation was laid because in that one it was terrifying.

We met at a university in Brisbane.

The cult leader had said that, you know, you only do this course once and you have to put everything into it.

We weren't told anything about the courses.

We were never told anything about the courses.

And you were told that specifically that you are not allowed to tell anyone else what happened on each course.

So we arrived there, the cult leader and all of her support team were standing at the front.

They weren't smiling, they were sort of yelling and screaming.

The cult leader was yelling, she was asking for our id, our wallets.

We couldn't, we had to hand everything over.

And eventually, after hours and hours, what was probably about five hours, we were put.

We were marched out in a line onto a blackened out bus and we drove.

We had no watches, we didn't know what time it was.

We didn't know what was happening.

We drove on a bus all blackened out for hours and hours and eventually we weren't allowed to go to the toilet.

She said that we could only go to the toilet when she told us we could.

So already that was terrifying for me.

And we ended up getting there to this property which was in the middle of nowhere.

We had no idea where we were.

Obviously mobile phones didn't exist then.

But yeah, we didn't have any way to get home or contact anyone.

So we were there.

And then it was more lectures, more meditating, more chanting.

We only had somewhere up to 17 hours sleep.

So we only had a couple of hours sleep per night and we went without food for 24 hours.

Lots of yelling at us.

She made us yell and scream at each other, bring issues up with each other.

And there was just a whole heap of different stuff that really solidified those mind control techniques.

And I really believe that even from the first stage, one seminar, I was already hooked and I was already indoctrinated.

But if you weren't by that stage, the final step definitely did that.

You talk, you talk about things like making you stand on a stage naked and talk about what you don't like about your body.

Have people tell you what they don't like about your body.

These are the kinds of humiliation tactics.

Basically.

I just want people listening to understand the kinds of things that you were exposed to.

It wasn't just food deprivation and it wasn't just like sleep deprivation.

There were these very personal attacks, humiliation.

So you can imagine a property where all we see is some trees and it's Sort of dirt all around us.

And they had tents set up.

There was two of us staying in a tent and we'd be listening to lectures late into the night when it was totally dark.

And then, you know, we don't.

We'd go to bed and we didn't know because we didn't have a watch.

But two hours later we'd be woken up really suddenly and then we had to get up and start it all over again.

We used to have to do this run.

And then after the run, yeah, we had to strip naked and had to jump into this pond.

And we weren't allowed to get out of the pond until the cult leader told us we were allowed to.

And the time would only start when the last person got in.

So all of us were just, you know, peddling in this pond that I believe had leeches and we couldn't even see under it, it was dark.

So that was terrifying.

And then, as I mentioned, we were not allowed to go to the toilet until she told us.

We had sort of five minutes and then there was only three portaloos and 80 people had to go to the toilet within, you know, a five minute time.

Fr if you missed out, you had to wait till the next one.

It was all about, yeah, fear, humiliation.

There was a process where, yeah, one night in the middle of the night when it was dark, we were in the big marquee and there was a stage and first of all we had our swimmers on.

And then she said that if you can stand naked in front of people, you can do anything, you know, and we all got up and did it one after the other.

And yeah, it was complete humiliation.

I just remember sweating and feeling horrible.

And you had people who were from about 17 years of age to like 80 years of age, men and women, boys and girls.

Yeah, we had to say what we liked about our body, what we didn't.

And then the people in the audience could come in as well.

So, yeah, they're just a few of the things that happened.

So.

And all of this you've been told too, that you're not to discuss with anybody.

So there's no talking to your parents about this or no getting anybody else's opinion about whether this.

Yeah.

And I think then at the end you.

We were told to bring like a party outfit as well, and that got taken at the beginning.

And then right at the end, after you've been through this, you know, seven nights and eight days of hell, then the last night is this big party.

And of course, you know, you're happy in this, that and the other, and you're shell shocked.

You know, what the f just happened to us.

But it's that kind of duality as well, where you go through hell and then you have this one big party for one night and then it's like hell again.

And, and that's kind of what happened through the whole process of those years.

It was, you know, the cult leader might say one nice thing to you, but then, you know, she'll say a hundred really horrible things about you.

And it's always this uphill battle and struggle to climb out of where you've been.

And what was your kind of mental state coming out the other side of that?

Because you went back again, right?

So what, what, what, what's happening for you out of the other side of that?

Horrible.

I just think that I always felt like I had a lot of problems.

You know, I was always self reflecting, trying to better myself.

You know, I was a bit overweight back then and I knew I wasn't perfect.

And I really had this internal drive to keep going and evolve and get to, you know, this enlightened state.

And I felt better, but I still felt very heavy and I had a lot of fear.

So I knew that I had to keep going.

And that just is what happened the whole way through.

You know, I never felt like I was on the other side.

And I think that's what the cult leader and cults do is there's always, they're always dangling this carrot to say, you know, you're not there yet, you need to do more, go higher, higher, higher with your involvement, etc.

That's what they do the whole time.

You know, they, they love bomb you.

You know, the cult leader would verbally sort of abuse us and put us down, and then, you know, she might lift you up once and then put you down a number of times.

And it's just that game.

And so you're never in a good place.

And she said that you need to access the heavy emotions before you get to the lighter ones.

And, you know, we would just access the same thing over and over again.

All these heavy emotions and obviously there was no light ones.

So, you know, it really was an ongoing process.

What you just described sounds so similar to essentially being in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser.

This constant erosion of your self esteem and your sense of self worth and then these like little, you know, crumbs of positive reinforcement that you then latch onto and you become just almost obsessed with getting more of that.

Positive reinforcement because you're feeling so about yourself.

Absolutely.

And then the only person who can make you feel better, like they're.

They've told you and indoctrinated you that they are.

Yes.

The way.

Yes.

And when we're educating about cults, we always talk about the one on one relationship, which is when you're with a narcissist or even a psychopath.

So yeah, it's exactly the same thing.

Coercive control, but on a grander scale, I guess, because, you know, cults are always.

That the term cult, you know, people always either think that anyone who's been in a cult is an idiot.

They got themselves in there, it's their fault.

But you can just look at it as a gang mentality or peer pressure that you have that one on one.

But it's on a grander scale and you've got not only the cult leader that you have to contend with, but you've got a whole group of her supporters that, you know, if you put one foot wrong then you're going to have the whole of the group sick onto you and not just one person.

So I was going to say.

Yeah, I'm not going to say what's worse, you know, one on one is really horrible.

Horrible.

But then also the group dynamic is.

Is horrible as well.

On a grander scale.

Yeah, I was actually going to mention that.

So with the one on one abuser.

Not that that's what we're here to talk about.

Yes.

But it's kind of you with your own head working out.

Am I the crazy one?

This is the gaslighting thing is.

Right.

Like am I crazy?

Whereas in a cult you've got a whole lot of people around who are.

They're enamored with this person.

Like they're telling you that this is amazing and almost reinforcing that it is your issue, if you've got the issue.

Because we're all doing great.

Exactly.

I'm just curious to know, just going back, so what was your mum's perception, I guess, of that first weekend and did she have any opinion about you choosing to go on to the next and the next at that time?

I don't remember her actually saying anything about the fact that I was continuing.

I know that my sister didn't want to do anything else.

My sister had grown up pretty street wise, so she kind of clashed with the cult leader.

I was more sheltered and, you know, probably a mummy and daddy's girl.

And I was very naive.

I didn't.

I certainly wasn't street wise.

And so the red flags and even all that fear that I was feeling and even towards the cult leader, I wasn't recognizing and I wasn't admitting that.

Hey, yeah, my gut feeling, my intuition is telling me that she's a really scary person.

And I was turning it around to say, just to believe her in the fact that she was saying, if you are feeling like this, yes, and I can help you to not feel like that in the future and I can help you have your dreams come true.

So I don't remember my mom ever saying, no, you shouldn't do this.

And she never did do that.

But back then in the 90s, late 90s and even the early 2000s, 2000s cults, you know, the, the weird and wonderful cults overseas like Waco and Jonestown, etc.

They were very extreme, but people didn't correlate what happened there to what was happening to us and other groups in Australia.

So there still wasn't a word for it.

You know, fast forward to about 2007 when a lot of people had left this, our cult.

There was people who started speaking up about it and that's when they, they, you know, termed it a cult.

And my parents heard, oh yes, this is a cult.

And then they educated themselves by going to a cult support group and things like that.

Back then, yeah, I was really on my own journey.

So at that point you came out of that week, but you did kind of get away and you traveled overseas for a bit and eventually you ended up back.

Yes.

And you signed on to a much longer and intensive program.

That's correct.

Because I couldn't afford to do the year long program which was called Personal Mastery and Metaphysical Counseling Certificate to become a counselor.

Counselor, because my God, I know.

So, you know, I'd done lots of courses to become a psychic reader, a metaphysical healer, and I wanted to do the counseling course because I wanted to be a counselor and help people and heal people.

So that was a year long and I, I couldn't afford it at the end of that year, after the final step.

So an opportunity through a friend of a friend came up to go and nanny in Italy.

So I did that.

But while I was there, I was still completely indoctrinated.

So I was still running every day and screaming into a face cloth.

You can imagine around Tuscany and the vineyards and you know, me running around with a cloth yelling and screaming.

It was crazy.

And because I was kind of still on a vegan vegetarian diet, I couldn't even enjoy all of the beautiful Italian Food, they didn't really know what to feed me.

So it was just shocking.

You know, it just shows that it doesn't matter whether you're at a distance from the cult.

If you are indoctrinated, you are still, you know, your, your mind is completely there no matter where you are in the world.

So when I got back, I started working in a, in a public relations firm and I stepped onto the year long course and that was just again, just another level.

And we had about 29 people and there was lots of assignments, book assignments and we had to juice 2 liters of juice every day, stick to a vegan diet, no sugar, no bread, no salt, that type of thing.

So you're looking at food deprivation, sleep deprivation, because we were running around crazily trying to do these assignments and pass books, books on and more of the mind control techniques were utilized.

By the end of that she would be up at the room with her support team at the front and it was really, if you can imagine Jerry Springer, like she would purposely create drama and issues with the group and she would just watch it and feed off that.

So that was, that's what it was all about to her.

It was all about drama and because you would know with narcissism and whether it's psychopathy, they're so dead inside and have no emotions, no empathy.

So really they need to be entertained and get attention.

And that's all that she was doing the whole time.

So you know, it just went on and on and I completed course after course after course and then things just progressed where she was finally actually on A Current Affair for an accused of being a cult leader and financially abusing people, etc.

And her reputation really went down.

And then extraordinarily she decided to become a psychologist in the year 2000 so that she could rectify her reputation.

But she didn't really think that through because from that point on she had to be accountable to our, you know, it's called APRI here, the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency.

So before she was not accountable to anyone, you know, she'd said that she was a counselor or that she was teaching people how to counsel, but she'd never done a counseling course.

She said that she was qualified in alternate systems and healing and relationship counseling, things like that, but her degree was actually in agriculture.

So I think that's another thing that's really important for red flags and just for the public to, to know about when you are getting involved with anyone, whether it's a, an organization, a group, a Meetup even a person.

Look them up online and do your research.

Because in this day and age, no one can get away with anything.

So you will find a comment or review or just something somewhere about that particular group, person or organization.

And yeah, you just.

I think the other thing is you can't be naive anymore and you can't allow your children to grow up sheltered.

That is a very good point.

And going back, you didn't necessarily have the benefit of the Internet like you.

You actually didn't have access to Google to be able to see who this person was or what other people have said.

You only had what was right in front of you.

Right.

So that we now have a lot more access to information.

I mean, still, people still get scammed and, and get sucked into these things.

But you were really at a disadvantage at that time.

Yes.

And then around 2007, which, if I'm not mistaken, was around when the Internet was really coming into its own.

I could be mistaken, but that's when there was Facebook started.

Then it did.

Yeah.

So that's when some blog started appearing on a cult education website.

Rick Ross, if anyone's heard about him.

And so that's when people started just telling the truth about this cult leader and what had happened to them, calling her a narcissist and a psychopath and just everything that she'd actually done, the physical abuse, the verbal abuse, the financial abuse.

And then she ended up suing or trying to sue those people.

So after A Current Affair, at least half or more of her base of cult members actually disappeared because they woke up.

And then her true believers, including myself, stayed with her, supported her and defended her.

I ended up working for her for 10 years.

And, you know, she blamed.

She used me as a scapegoat on a number of occasions.

You know, the Australian Taxation Office came in to investigate her and she blamed that on me.

And then I had to repay her money for that.

And that took about four years.

And, you know, this is where I hope I'm not jumping ahead, but where the human trafficking and slavery comes in, because that was debt bondage and, you know, forced labor.

She didn't pay me for any of the work I did.

I think it's, it's great that governments and authorities are now looking at cults not only as these, you know, extremist religious organizations and people are idiots and they, you know, it's their fault, but they're looking at it as human trafficking and slavery because that is exactly what the legislation states.

What we went through was that and unfortunately for me and my peers, the legislation for human trafficking, slavery, wasn't amended until about March 2012.

So anyone that was a victim after that time can really go to the police and get, hopefully, justice.

Just while I'm on it, you know, if anyone does escape from a cult, don't go to the media and just, you know, tell them what happened.

Please go to the authorities first.

Go to the police.

Report exactly what happened, all the abuse, whatever it was, financial, psychological, sexual.

It's really important to report it to the police first.

You did end up working for her.

You were quite keen to get more involved into the organization.

You took a job, then she didn't pay you, she never had the money to pay you.

Yeah.

And then somehow or other she also ended up figuring out that you owed her money.

So you were indebted not just for the ATO stuff, she manufactured all of these other reasons why you apparently owed her money.

That's correct.

For example, she went on a ski trip with her children and her nephew, and I organized it.

And then she made claims when she got back that I didn't book transfers or the.

Her accommodation right on the ski slopes, you know, this, that and the other.

And so I had to pay her $10,000 for that.

So, you know, I had to pay her 5.

Just.

Yeah, just made that up.

Just.

Just decided that was worth $10,000 for a penalty.

Exactly.

And, you know, and people say, well, if you weren't getting paid, you know, how are you giving her?

How did you pay her?

Yeah, so I was working second and third jobs, so I was waitressing or I worked at a cinema on the Gold coast for four years.

Later on, I worked at McDonald's, you know, and by the way, at that point I thought I was only worthy of working at McDonald's.

She ended up buying a guest house and a beauty salon down at Byron Bay during my time with her.

And I was cleaning the guest house, I was performing, you know, massages and pedicures and things like that.

So it was all about her.

She would go out on her boat or surfboarding with her partner at the time, and she.

It was all about us doing all the work for her.

And she would just be raping the benefits financially and having her free time off.

And we were just slaves.

I mean, I was working honestly up to 22 hours a day, seven days a week in the last few years.

There was times when I was only having two hours sleep and, you know, there was a few, a few nights that I didn't have Any sleep.

That's why I always say it's up to 22 hours a day.

So it's, it's, it's just incredible.

I think people don't really understand how someone like myself and others could actually survive like this or do this.

Now the bit that you missed was at some point that you got into a relationship with somebody who actually wasn't involved with the organization.

But he did become involved.

Did he have any red flags at the beginning or was he kind of happy?

Did he consider this to be a positive thing because you thought it was a positive thing?

Like what was that?

Because you then had two kids?

Two.

Three.

Yeah, three.

Three kids.

While you were doing all of these jobs and work and being abused and having no money, you also had children?

That's correct.

He actually had done the first program, the next evolutionary stuff.

And he actually went to school with a girl who was on my year long course and he was living with her and that's how he knew about the courses.

So he had actually done the first one.

And then, you know, I know that if it wasn't for me, he probably would have left the group a lot earlier and particularly after we did have children.

You know, after every child things escalated and he actually left for a little while.

And a lot of the premise for why I was doing the courses was to cleanse my cellular memory for my children and also the planet and myself.

So once children were on the scene, that was another leverage for the cult leader to keep us there.

And she would always tell us that we needed to continue to evolve for the sake of our children.

What was the turning point?

What caused you to eventually leave?

As I mentioned, she had been suing a lot of people, including three other ex members and also my parents for defamation.

So she needed to raise funds for all of her legal cases.

She was under a lot of pressure and so there wasn't too many of us left.

But we were again working on her accounts and I was only having two hours sleep a night.

I had three children by that point.

My ex husband, now he had left two years before at this point and was just sort of seeing me once a week and the kids once a week to help look after them.

So there was a lot of pressure for me.

She ended up physically battering me again in a very frenzied attack.

Like she punched me in the face, gave me a black eye.

I think it was the 27th of December and then on the 29th, she really beat the crap out of me and pinned me to the Ground and was screaming in my face, pulling my hair out, all that type of thing, kicking me as she did.

And I had just really got to the point where I just could not cope anymore.

She was calling me a con artist, that I wasn't paying enough, you know, to her and everyone else, and that I was conning everyone else.

And I had got to the point where just physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, I could not cope anymore.

And you know, logically I had worked out that I couldn't actually keep going.

Like I'd always been trying to manifest money and you know, she got me onto the Sendlink, Single Mothers Pension and Family Assistance, etc.

At one point.

And that money obviously went directly to her.

And so I'd been on that for about four years and then I've been working at McDonald's and other side jobs.

But I worked out that what she was proposing for me to give her and everyone else financially, I'd only have $50 at the end of the week for food and putting my kids into, you know, long daycare pay for that and just things like that.

So logically my brain actually realized I'm not going to be able to do this anymore.

And there was just one day where she called me down to her house and I thought she was going to bash me up again.

And she was just screaming at me and telling everyone, you know, not to speak to me anymore.

And I was being treated like dirt.

And my children, she was starting to say that my children were liars at that point.

They were eight, five and two and a half.

And yeah, basically when I walked out of the house, she hadn't physically assaulted me, but I thought it's only a matter of time.

And I just thought, look, I just have to, I have to go because I can't do anything.

And I just made this sort of bet with myself and I ended up walking down the hill thinking that everyone would find me and follow me, but they didn't.

And I just filled my car up with everything and went and picked up my three children from daycare and vacation care and yeah, basically drove to my ex husband's work and just started speaking to him.

And because I had made that decision even though I was still indoctrinated and sort of talking myself in, just saying, you know, I'm gonna tell her that I'm not gonna, you know, work through the night.

I'm only gonna work during the day, this and the other.

But once I was with my ex husband in a safe place with my three children within five Minutes.

My brain just started, you know, wow.

Just.

I was out of that survival mode and it just started functioning.

And I thought, oh, my God, she is a cult leader and that is a cult.

And then that was it.

It.

So it's long and short of it.

Yeah.

I mean, there is so much that you haven't even mentioned to do with the criminal activity, the money that she was illegally collecting on behalf of loads of, like, there's so much there.

People can read, get the book if they want, all of that.

Yes.

But, Carly, when you came to your senses basically that day and then you left, what was the process for your healing to recover from that?

It was.

It was a huge process.

And just the recovery for people who've been in a cult, it takes years and years.

You know, some people estimate that however long you've been in the cult will be how long it will take to get over it.

And, you know, I was in there for 13 and a half years, and honestly, not until like, five years, 10 years down the track, you start to feel normal.

First of all, you go through things like, you know, I caught up with all of my school friends and some uni friends that I hadn't seen for that whole time.

And, you know, the school friends, I divulged to them stuff that had happened, and, you know, they just look at you as if you're like a weird creature and don't understand anything.

And, you know, they never, ever called me back, and I never saw them again.

So you've lost all your friends?

You know, I had a family member that didn't speak to me for three years, and then after that, barely spoke to me.

You know, I've tried to get therapy a few times, and there was one psychologist who said about five times, oh, look, this is really overwhelming, you know, overwhelming because I was just verbally diary for like an hour.

Even psychologists, we find that they just can't understand and really help us because what we have experienced is so extreme.

But I ended up doing emdr, which I found really good.

I did that about three times back then, and then I ended up doing it more after the court case.

I thought I better go back and just tidy up just the last finishing touches of what was going on.

And I did that about three times in three weeks.

And it does bring up a lot.

I really found that helpful, but it is very.

It just brings up everything straight away, and it is a lot to deal with.

Even though I had moved through so much emotionally and processed so much, for me, it brought up a lot.

So I can't imagine what it would do.

Just a person with just some, some ptsd.

I joined a cult support group called Cult Information and Family Support kifs, which my parents had been involved with.

And that was really helpful.

You get to be around people, either parents and loved ones who have had people in a cult or still do.

And you get to talk to ex cult members.

And I think it's really important.

That is one really big thing that I recommend is that, you know, no matter whether you've been in a cult or with a narcissist or someone like that in a gang, really hang around people and seek support from those who have experienced it.

Yeah.

And you know, just I hadn't had a job.

I mentioned that I worked at McDonald's.

Like when I got out of the cult, I was too scared to get a job for almost two years and I thought I was only, you know, I could only work on the front counter of McDonald's.

That's how I felt.

And I, you know, had a university degree and had so much promise at uni and afterwards that wasn't fulfilled.

So I had to build up my self esteem again as far as my career is concerned, make new friends and which to, you know, didn't happen too much.

And you know, I guess when you've been in a cult situation or with a narcissist or a psychopath, you really don't trust people.

So you have to work out how to set boundaries and learn how to do that for the first time in your life.

And I had believed in Jesus and God and been very religious when I was up to 19 and then in the new age, I was still very spiritual.

I was very spiritual the whole time and I am now.

But I really turned away from, you know, even saying Jesus or God.

So that, that's a shame in a way because I really was so scarred that I cut connection even just with those particular words.

But now I'm sort of starting to get back to just really realizing that everything I went through, you know, cults, they will have different themes and different recruitment methods and you know, they might be Bible based groups or whatever it is.

Mine was a new age group because I believed in the new age and I still do.

So it's, it's a shame that a cult leader or a narcissist will really work on you so much that you lose your innate self and you really have to try and rebuild that and rebuild those connections and those beliefs again.

Yeah, yeah.

But look it, it's taken A long time.

And, you know, I guess also going into the cult when I was 21, you know, I didn't come out until I was 35.

So I lost all of my 20s and half of my 30s.

That was something that I had to accept.

Carly, how much faith do you actually have in psychologists, given that your cult leader is currently a registered psychologist in Australia and still registered with ahpra?

Exactly.

I, I mean, I don't want to say anything too bad, certainly don't think I can be sued for defamation for this, but I don't have faith in ahpra.

My cult leader is actually also registered with the HCPC in the uk and I've communicated with.

I did write a book about my experiences and self published it in 2017.

And then I was subsequently sued for defamation and I spent over six years defending myself.

And I went to trial from September to December 2023, and I stood up in the court and ran the whole trial myself.

It was over 10 weeks and on the 1st of March, I ended up winning the court case with.

With 12 imputations ruled absolutely true, and 4 imputations ruled substantially true.

And it was a scathing judgment of the cult leader and that the Supreme Court judge called her an arrant liar and a cult leader.

And she ended up appealing.

And obviously I was researching all of the law myself.

I only spoke to a couple of lawyers very briefly at either end of the court case.

And, you know, I just happened upon the legislation about that you can get an appeal dismissed for want of prosecution if you know it's prejudiced against the defendant or if she's taking too much time.

And there was a couple of other things.

And miraculously, after three and a half months, I got the appeal dismissed.

And that was on the 8th of July.

And so both those judgments against the cult leader I sent to APRA and the hcpc and they've hardly corresponded with me at all.

And basically I believe that they're waiting for a criminal verdict.

You know, I've handed over all of my evidence to the Australian Federal Police.

I was very determined to speak the truth and seek justice because no one had managed to do it.

She had sued multiple organizations.

Had she?

Yeah, and, you know, my parents and ex cult members as well as university and, you know, A Current Affair, et cetera.

So she'd been extremely litigious.

For some reason, I felt like I had the balls to take her to court and win, and I did.

At the end, after I won the appeal, you know, I was still determined to take it right to the end, criminally.

But really I've had to just step back and, and say, you know, it's up to the police now.

It's up to AHPRA and the HCPC to do their job.

I mean, the Supreme Court judge and the Chief justice have stated that it's absolutely true that she battered myself and others, incited others to batter others, that she committed sexual assault, that she is a criminal even.

It's substantially true that she's a violent extremist, that she's likely to suffer from narcissistic and borderline personality disorder.

There were some big things that I proved.

So surely an absolutely true statement is as good as beyond reasonable doubt.

But AHPRA and the HCPC have not taken action and she is still able to practice as a psychologist in both Australia and the uk.

I just need to have a little chuckle about that.

I mean, to be honest, Carly, I'm a psychologist and the fear that exists among, among the psychology profession.

I mean, like, people are terrified that any little thing that they do, they're going to get called up to.

Ah, that's why I had as a contextual imputation that she's likely to be a psychopath, because she had put in her imputations, in her statement of claim that, you know, I reduced her reputation, stating that she's likely to suffer from narcissism and borderline personality disorder.

I put in the contextual imputation that she's likely to be a psychopath.

The judge actually put in his judgment that she definitely has a psychological disorder, whether it be, you know, narcissism or, you know, psychopathy, that type of thing.

He actually put it in the judgment, you know, even that as far as APRA's concerned, you know, I know, with their laws, Section 51, I think it is, that if they have some sort of personality disorder or they're a criminal, that they should be struck off.

But it still hasn't happened.

Effy, many people who have similar experience to what you had when they come out, like, they never talk about it, there's a level of shame involved.

But you've been really open.

Has it been.

Do you think that's been helpful for you to talk about it and get your story out there?

Yeah, it's interesting because as I mentioned, I was an executive assistant and I never mentioned it to anyone right up until I was about to publish my book.

So I always kept it hidden from my work colleagues.

I definitely wanted to tell the truth about her because I was always a person, even in the cult that told the truth.

And even though I did some.

What would be deemed horrible things in the cult myself, I was prepared to wear that because I know that I was indoctrinated, and it probably wouldn't have happened if I wasn't in the cult, and I had to wear the fact that things might come back against me.

But I was prepared to be totally truthful and honest so that I could tell the entire truth about the cult leader and what happened in the culture.

When people are going to expose someone else, they have to be prepared for any backlash against them.

And I just believed so much in telling the truth about her because for years and years, like, over 20, 30 years now, people have been trying to tell the truth, but she's been trying to censor them with litigation.

So, as I said, I don't know why, but for some reason, I just felt like I had the courage and the boldness to take her on, because innately, I've had that strength.

I mean, funnily enough, during the courses, you get to know what your name means.

And my name, Kali, means strong woman and free woman.

And it's funny because I use things like, you know, the goddess, Indian goddess Kali.

Throughout the court case, I had a picture of Kali up on the wall.

And during the trial, I was, for the first time, calling on, you know, archangel Michael and Jesus Christ and God and relying on all of whatever I had access to to get me through that, because every day, I had to face her from memory.

I think I cr her on the stand for 17 days.

Oh, my God.

So I know.

And.

And we'd moved into a larger courtroom, into a small courtroom, so she was literally, like, a meter and a half away from me.

And I had to face this woman who had.

Wow.

Basically persecuted me for 13 and a half years and bashed the shit out of me.

I had to face her, and I had to question her and.

And listen to her lie.

Absolutely.

Oh, that was just the major thing.

Like, luckily, my mom actually went, and she was there with me every single day for.

We were down in Hobart for three months, and we just could not get over how much she lied and exaggerated, like, it was just beyond a joke.

But that was great because, you know, I knew that I had to ask her questions about things and then.

And get her to lie, and then I would bring out the actual evidence.

And that's what actually won me this court case, is because I'm.

I'm an executive assistant, and I have kept her.

Yeah, I used all my organizational abilities and all the evidence I had, I'd kept everything.

So I had the evidence.

And.

And that's why, you know, I know a lot of people don't win their cases is because they don't have enough evidence.

You know, you're relying on what people say and reputation and how they come across in the courtroom.

But I had tendered over 400 documents and videos and audio.

So, yeah, good on you.

Good on you.

So, I mean, to represent yourself and then face her.

I am conscious of the time.

But I did want to say, too, like you, you got out of the cult.

You would think that is the step where you start to.

That's the point where you can start just getting on with your life.

But like you said, she has continued in her capacity now as a psychologist, has even threatened to report you to children's services, to have your children taken away.

Like, she basically continues to try to exert whatever influence and power she has to control you, even once you're out.

That's correct.

She used the tool of whenever anyone escaped because she knew they would go to the police, she went to the police first.

So whenever anyone left, she would report them to the police for either stealing or being abusive to their kids, that type of thing.

That's why it's really important when anyone has had physical, sexual, financial abuse to go and report it to the police.

And see, I didn't even report it until after the newspaper articles came out.

I don't even know why.

It's ridiculous.

Like, we just think that we should just either get on with our lives or we'll go to the media first.

It's crazy.

You need to report everything that happens to you.

And here's where the education comes in.

You know, you need to realize that no one is allowed to physically hurt you, sexually hurt you, financially hurt you, coerce you, be misleading and coerce you to do something or say something that you don't really want to.

Yeah.

It is up to parents and the community to educate everyone, and particularly our children about the types of people that are out in our community.

And yeah, when something happens, to just report it.

Carly, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today.

I'm sure it's not easy to talk about it all over again, but I'm really in awe to be honest and appreciate you telling your story to help other people and to educate other people.

Credit to you.

Thank you.

Thanks very much, Cass.

Thank you so much.

Crabby to Happy is created and produced by me, Cass Dunn.

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