We Need Your Art: Unleash Your Creative Spirit with Amie McNee

Foreign.

This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.

I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course, author of the Crappy to happy books.

In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy.

Foreign My guest today is Amy McNee.

I heard of Amy when I was pitched from a publisher that she was writing a book about creativity.

And the book is called we need your art, stop around and make something.

I took an interest.

I checked her out online.

I realized that she had a substack, so I subscribed to her substack and then I got started getting her her email newsletters.

This is why I love substack.

And when I received her first email, I didn't even get to the bottom of it before I had pressed reply and asked her if she would please come and be a guest on my podcast.

So Amy's full bio is that she is an author, she is a speaker, and she's a creative coach.

She started posting her art on Instagram and now has half a million followers.

Some really big names are following Amy's Instagram Instagram.

Amy runs a creative collective and it only opens like once or twice a year and it is open right now only for a few more days.

I'm going to put the link to that in my show notes.

She has mentored thousands of creatives from all around the world.

Something like 12 different countries are represented in her community.

So if you are interested in that, make sure that you get on that.

It's really affordable.

But without any further ado, here is Amy McNee.

Welcome, Amy, to Crybaby to Happy Cass.

I'm so honored to be here.

I love that we get to be here in person.

Two Aussies in London.

It's where we belong.

I love this.

I know.

I'm actually.

I just need to say that I'm very excited for this conversation.

My first studio podcast since 2020, so it is quite a special moment.

And who would have thought it would be with an Aussie?

So, Amy, you're all about art, creativity, living a creative life.

My topic is not that, but I'm actually kind of amazed at how much your message and my message align.

Even though we're kind of talking about different things.

Perhaps when we talk about art and creativity, for a lot of people the default response is I'm not an artist, I'm not creative, I'm Not a creative person.

Before we kick off this podcast, for anybody who's thinking, oh, yeah, this isn't going to apply to me.

Can we start with you defining, what do you define as art and what is creativity?

It's the perfect place to start, because otherwise we're going to get through this whole podcast and someone is going to be listening, and at the back of their head, they're going to be like, but this doesn't apply to me.

I'm going to look straight down the barrel of camera and be like, this applies to you.

So many of us, I think we put the word artist on a pedestal.

We even put the word creative on a pedestal, and we've been told it's even like, it's elitist almost, that it's only for those with a certain education or only those with a certain skill set, only those with a certain amount of free time.

And so it's not for us.

I think we also, like, associate artists with the fine arts.

So, like, painting or.

Yeah, and when I talk about art, I'm talking about people who want to make stuff to connect with others, and that really does include most of us.

Humans are here to create.

We make stuff out of nothing.

So this podcast, you are making this podcast and using your beautiful creative mind to make something to connect with people.

It's an art form.

You are an artist.

And so I really want people to understand that this word is yours to claim.

We haven't been told we're allowed to claim it, but it is ours to claim.

You are going to be creating art all throughout your life without even realizing it.

And it's our job to really make sure that we understand that this is a big part of our lives.

And you said at the beginning, it's kind of we're not talking about the same thing, but we are talking about the same thing.

Our lives, our entire lives is a creative act.

And then when we can understand that, I think we can squeeze the juice out of a bit more and.

And really lean into, like, the magic of what it is to be human.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

And I wanted to get that out up front as well, so that people just didn't think, oh, this is for those arty times.

The other thing about art and the thing that gets in the way, I guess, of people pursuing art is this idea that it is trivial, it's less important than the other serious things that we need to do in life.

Amy, why is art so important?

This was my biggest story, and I just felt so ashamed and embarrassed That I wanted to fill my life with art when art was, you know, maybe some decoration for the world, you know, a nice to have or lucky for some, you've got time to create, but not like an essential part of the human experience.

But this again is a story we've been fed, and I think we've been fed it so that we don't create because creative humans, we take up a lot of space where we're loud, we're rebellious, so it's much.

When we are told not to create, we stay compliant and small and obedient.

So I want people to understand that the creative act, it's an act of rebellion and it goes against a lot of our societal rules.

It's not merely decoration for this world.

It is a way of expressing ourselves.

It's a way of taking up space.

It's a way of creating political change like our art can be used to do so many different things in the world.

And there's a reason why we don't live in a culture that encourages it.

Because it's a powerful and potent method of change.

Yeah.

When you look at how we've developed culturally, a lot of it has happened through creations, through art, through film, through books.

Our world changes as our art changes.

And so we cannot sideline art.

We cannot say that it is simply a trivial thing, something to do when you're a kid or something to do when you're retired.

It is a method of change.

It is a portal to change.

And we need to understand the power of it and the importance of it.

And it's a very serious act.

It can be joyful and playful, of course, but it's a serious and important thing to do.

As you were talking, I was just thinking about, I think you were in Australia during the COVID lockdowns.

I was, yeah.

Not back here in England.

And it's.

I remember even for those of us who don't directly work in the arts, it was such an eye opening moment when the government, the Australian government treated artists that offered them so much less in terms of benefits and support compared to other industries.

And by virtue of the fact that artists started like speaking up about that, it really opened my eyes.

I know that it opened my eyes and opened my mind to just the value of art in the world.

It was like, well, while you're in lockdown, what are you doing?

What are you doing?

Are you watching Netflix?

Are you reading a book?

Are you, you know, all of the.

Are you listening to a podcast?

All of the things I know I'm So glad you brought that up.

Exactly.

I write about it actually in my book and we need your art because the Australian government like just very openly said you're not doing anything serious with the way that they compensated Aussie artists who were hit so hard, especially performing artists.

Yes.

During COVID and we, they were treated so poorly and it was really like they were saying, oh, but you're just playing around with your piano.

That's not real work.

And I think this understanding that art is work is the cultural narrative that really needs to shift.

Art is important, important work.

And how ironic that they did it during COVID when everyone's lifeline was art, when the only reason we were getting up each day and like able to move through this extremely challenging time was because we were consuming art was deeply ironic but also incredibly eye opening.

And I think it's, it's obvious that we don't live in a culture that understands how important the creative act is.

Yeah.

And I feel like it's a big part of what I'm doing.

It's a big part of what this book does is to convince everyone, especially those who have this calling towards the creative act.

What you're doing is very important and I need you to take yourself very seriously.

Yeah.

On an individual level.

Going back to, you know, my, my job is all about well being and it's about health and happiness and mental health, physical health.

And you make some very good points too in the book about the impact of art on your health and well being and the positive impact it also has on communities.

Do you mind just sharing that briefly before you go on?

Yeah.

It's so delicious.

So a big part of this book is me making sure that when you finish the book, you are not going to have an excuse in the world to say that art isn't important or integral to your life.

And so at the start we really look at the research behind what create the Creative act is doing to our body, bodies, to our minds and to our communities.

And I don't know why we're not talking about the research more because it is astounding, exciting and just very blatant when we do the creative act.

And let me just preface this by saying doesn't have to be good art, it can be really crappy art and it doesn't even have to be for that long.

We see incredible physiological changes in our bodies like decline in inflammation, decline in pain.

It just beautiful, beautiful studies that look at a range of different basically methods in which art impacts ourselves.

It's so exciting and when we think about, oh, what am I going to do to, like, take care of my body?

We're going straight to, okay, we've got to exercise.

I got to sleep well, I got to do breath work.

And no one's thinking, I got to make some art.

But it's just as powerful as those other modalities.

Like, art should sit next to exercise.

When it comes to taking care of our bodies, like, it is a missing pillar in self development.

And then we go and look at it for our mental health as well, you see incredible impacts that the creativity has on our mental health.

And I think even if you've just had a little bit of experience, you know, drawing or singing, like, you can see the wonders it does for you.

I've been having a few anxious days, and as I drove here to the studio, I just sang at the top of my voice in the car, and I felt just like.

I just felt my mind just, like, let go.

And it's those small moments we can see it in our lives are impacts our mental health.

Yeah.

But again, there's an abundance of research behind it that just looks at how, again, potent creativity is for our brains.

And then I haven't even gotten on to community, which for me, for some reason, I really find the most exciting.

When you bring creativity back to our communities, we see healthy communities.

And when you rob communities of their culture, of their arts, we see dysfunctional communities.

Yeah, interesting.

And when we think about, like, everything that's going on in the world today, and we're like, I don't know what to do.

Like, people are like, people don't have education.

Like, we've got so many systemic problems.

No one's thinking we need to bring the arts back, but I want that to start being part of the conversation.

We need to start creating.

It brings us together, it allows us to connect.

It's such a vulnerable act to create.

Like, even it's a vulnerable act to create this podcast.

This is a community building thing.

And you can see that.

Yeah.

When we share our art, we build community.

And so it's these three pronged.

It heals communities, it heals our bodies, and it heals our minds.

We need to start taking it more seriously.

Yes.

Amen.

Little rant over.

So having said all of that, and we will get to that vulnerability because I know that that gets in people's way.

You have managed, Amy, to make a living, to.

To be a full time creator.

You're a full time writer.

And, you know, for a lot of people, that is the dream but they don't think it's possible for them.

I would love for you to share your story.

Like when did you first know that this is what you wanted to do and what did you have to over to be able to make that a reality?

Yeah, and that's a big question.

Yeah, it's a big, delicious question though.

One of my favorite things to talk about.

I want to preface this conversation by saying you don't need to be a full time artist to be a serious artist.

And many of us don't thrive doing create other creative act full time.

We love having like a plethora of different work, you know, in our lives.

So we like having a more regular job to support our creative act.

But for me, I just had this innate knowledge that I didn't want to do any other job other than make stuff.

And it was such a strong feeling that I had pretty much immediately I was like, you know, in these regular jobs I was in finance, I was in marketing.

I was like, no, this can't be it.

And I had this, what I felt very unreasonable desire for full time creativity.

I had a huge amount of shame about it and the culture and the stories in our society was telling me that that was unreasonable, delusional, foolish.

I actually shared yesterday and a letter that I got from a actually an author who had been watching me document my journey on Instagram because I've been documenting my journey as trying to be a writer for over 10 years now.

And she had very, from like very good intentions, messaged me and basically just said, amy, you're being ridiculous.

This is not a life that you, that basically anybody lives.

And she laid out all the reasons why I shouldn't pursue this, that it should just be something I do on the side.

And again, she did it with the best intentions, but it was incredibly disheartening and heartbreaking for me.

And that was the message I got for a lot of that journey, is don't ask for too much.

You want to be a full time artist, why are you asking for everything?

Why do you think you can have it all?

And I was like, I want it all.

And getting comfortable with desiring a life that I loved was a huge journey for me.

But it was very difficult.

But I fought for this life of full time artistry and I'm so grateful that I did because right now I'm living it and it's delightful.

For it was a very big journey with my internal stories and understanding that it wasn't too much to ask for, understanding that I wasn't being delusional, understanding that I wasn't being childlike.

I just wanted to spend my life doing stuff that I loved, which was writing.

Yeah, I just want to pick up on there.

You said you started to share your art online, and you also said prior to that, you know, creating is vulnerable, which it is.

And, you know, particularly putting work out into the world and having it out there for people to potentially judge it or criticize it.

And I think that pursuing anything creative does have that element of vulnerability which gets in people's way.

I want to ask you, do you believe it is important to share your work, or is it okay to just create in private?

Cass, it's a big question.

I know, and, like, I have a very instinctual answer, which is, no, stop hoarding your work and just share it.

Right?

Yeah.

Like, stop pretending that, like, I think a lot of us, we make a very big deal out of sharing our art, and we think, oh, my God, everyone's going to judge me.

And it's going to be like.

It's going to be, like, this huge moment, and everyone's going to have all these thoughts about me.

But sharing our art, like, first of all, no one gives that many craps about it, you know, And I think that's a.

Can be a very relieving thing when we realize that not everyone is monitoring out every step in every Instagram post.

We're allowed to share and take up space, and people aren't going to be thinking about you in bed at night.

But that also, it's a generous thing to do, to share your creative process and to be that vulnerable and that open.

That being said, I think there are times when, of course, you can.

You can just keep art for yourself.

I think it needs to be a negotiation and a balance.

But I think a lot of people are much more inclined to simply hoard art, be prolific makers, but hoard it.

And I worry about that pattern, and I think it is very often unhealthy and an unwillingness to be seen.

Yes, yes.

Which is why our work aligns.

Right.

Because a lot of.

Even when I'm not talking specifically about art, you know, the unwillingness to be seen, that fear of criticism and judgment and all of this that goes with that and how it holds people back from living whatever life they want.

That's the work that I do as well.

You mentioned that when you first started, you're sharing your work on, like, your social media account, that you blocked all of your family so that you could just be.

Feel free to put yourself out there without the judgment of the people who have a different, a preconceived idea of who you are.

I love that.

I was just gonna ask you, like, for those people who are listening, like, that's a great one.

Like, are there other things that you have done or you can suggest to help people to feel a little bit more, I don't know, to put some guardrails, I suppose, or to feel more comfortable stepping into sharing their art?

Yes.

This is such an important conversation because I think when we say, please share your art, people are like, oh my God, like, that's such a big step.

But we're allowed to have safety precautions and we should have safety precautions.

We don't need to do the scariest version of everything, you know, like, we can, we can take baby steps.

In fact, this whole life is just a load of baby steps.

And so, as you said for me, when I started this Instagram account, I blocked every single person I knew.

Everyone.

Like the randoms from high school were done like people from my primary school, you know.

No, no one was seeing me because I wanted to feel safe.

And if I hadn't felt safe, I wouldn't have been able to share what I shared.

So figure out who is holding you back from taking up space and see if you can protect yourself from them.

And sometimes we can't do it and sometimes we're just going to have to do the brave thing and understand that maybe you are going to be exposed in that way.

But take the precautions that you need.

I have many practices that support me if I move through something very vulnerable.

So I think Brene Brown calls it a vulnerability hangover.

So when I share something like a particularly vulnerable essay, I will make sure I'm not monitoring it afterwards.

So I think a lot of people will share something, like share a piece of art online and then like hyper monitor it because we're hyper vigilant because we don't feel safe.

So I'll lock my phone in the car.

I need like two hours off.

I can't micromanage people's reaction to my creations.

Me staring at how many people have liked it or not liked it, it's not going to help me.

It's going to send me into fight or flight.

So having a huge separation after I've shared something vulnerable and really letting myself feel safe and calm, like doing a practice that my body feels safe in, whether that's just watching a comfort show, having a cup of tea, taking myself away from that space has been incredibly important for me.

It's something I need to do more of, actually.

I can feel that that practice is kind of come away from me a little bit recently.

And I've been so vulnerable recently because of my book coming out.

But, yeah, there are so many different ways to give ourselves the safety we need as we do brave things.

And I think what you've got to ask yourself is, who or what is stopping me?

Can I put a barrier there that would allow me to take up more space?

Yeah.

The other thing that happens on social media particularly, is that for people who share, there is the judgment and then there's the comparison trap.

And social media has really heightened that across the board.

The comparison and the jealousy.

And you talk about that as well.

I would love for you to share because you had a great one about jealousy and identifying who you were jealous of.

I think this is so important.

What did you do?

Like, how can people use those feelings for good?

I guess.

And also, how do you step out of the comparison trap?

There's two questions there, but yeah, no similar delicious topic.

What's.

I mean, can I.

Am I allowed to throw answer questions back at you, like, what's your relationship with.

With jealousy in particular?

Because I think this is a topic.

I think one of the big things that we need to do culturally when it comes to jealousy, especially in creative communities like ours, is we need to talk about more openly.

It's very taboo.

Like, you're not allowed to talk about who you're jealous of because that's an embarrassing thing to feel.

But I like the idea that we could open up this conversation about jealousy and see it as not like, this toxic, like something to be ashamed of, but to understand that jealousy is a very natural part of.

Of being a human being.

Like, I do find myself in having these spurs of jealousy all the time.

And which is why in the book, I, like, wrote down everyone I've ever been jealous of, and I'm like, let's just bring it out into the open and talk about this.

Because I think when things are hidden and we don't talk about them, they fester.

Yeah.

I don't.

What is your relationship with jealousy?

It has changed over time.

I think similar to you because I think jealousy.

Yeah, jealousy was kind of a shameful thing.

You would never talk about it because it feels petty and mean.

And we're supposed to support each other and we're supposed to, you know, be happy for other people's success, even though it's really hard, because really, deep down you think they don't really deserve that, and I'm actually better than that.

And, you know, all those little, you know, so it's not nice, it's not pleasant.

And I guess I have come to a point of, you know, I guess being, accepting.

That's part of the human condition.

Yeah.

And it doesn't make me a bad person.

But also the.

The key that I.

Something that I have said before in this podcast is like, sometimes jealousy is an indication that you want what they have, but you don't think you can have it.

Some part of you feels like you can't have what they have.

Yeah.

Because if you saw them doing that and you thought fully, fully, 100% felt that you could have that, there wouldn't be so much jealousy.

Interesting.

Interesting.

There's like a gap between, like, what they have and what you think you deserve.

Yeah.

And so you can, if you can use that to identify, first of all, well, what is it that they have that you want, but also what is needs to be explored in you that makes you think that you can't have that.

I think I love that.

And I just think jealousy is like, it's untapped.

It's such a fascinating emotion that I think can reveal a lot for us, but we're so ashamed of it, we just shut it off immediately.

As I launched this book, I've obviously been watching a lot of other book launches that are going on simultaneously, and I felt a lot of jealousy arrive.

And it's been like this incredible, well, of like, self development for me.

I mean, Dr.

Chatterjee, Mel Robbins, they've both had books out around the same time.

I've been watching their tours and being like, oh, my God, why?

Why doesn't Amy have that?

You know, and that's so interesting.

And then just allowing myself the grace to not beat myself up about that, but just ask myself questions about what's going on behind that, you know?

Amy, do you not feel as supported as them?

Like, Amy, do you not feel like you can have what they have?

Like, Amy, do you need what they have?

Amy, do you actually even want what they have?

Yes.

You know, these are questions to ask.

Do you just feel like you should have what they have?

It's so delicious, but I think we have to take away the shame before it becomes delicious.

Yes.

So I think having these conversations about who jealousy and like, who was who we're seeing and who we're comparing ourselves to is really important because once it's out in the open, I think we can start, like, digging around in it and understanding it better.

To me, jealousy is a roadmap and a way for me to access and work with myself.

And again, you know, whether you're an identify as an artist or not, that's just so useful.

No matter in life.

Just across the board.

Across the board comparison.

What about, you know, comparing what you're doing to what other people are doing?

How do you keep that in, how do you.

Yeah.

Keep that in check.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm firm with myself about this.

I think I need a few call ins.

And again, let's use Mel or Mel Robbins or Dr.

Chatterjee.

Is this like.

I was watching their book launches so intensely I had to have a full on call in.

Amy, stay in your lane.

Stay in your lane.

You have such important work to do.

You are so needed.

You are a one time phenomenon in this universe.

You are so unique.

I love that like just, it's just constant self coaching.

Stop looking over there.

This has nothing to do with you.

You have and like just keep on coming back to my work, my creation.

I think a salve for a constant feeling of needing to compare is focus on the creation.

Like what are you doing?

Like make like look at like.

I think that constant need to look to the side is healed when we get really obsessed with whatever we're doing in our laps.

So when I'm worried about or comparing myself to Mel Robbins's beautiful book tour, I come home, I focus on the books I'm writing, I focus on my own book tour, I focus on my community.

And this is so positive and so what I have control over and it delights me and I'm in my own lane.

Yeah.

You know, Yeah.

I think what you said about, I can't remember your exact words, but what came to my mind was this, like being of service, like how, how can I serve?

Forget that.

What am I doing to contribute?

Exactly, exactly.

And when we create, we contribute.

And so I think it's really pulling myself back to process rather than the constant looking either side and being compassionate with that version of myself.

You know, this is such a vulnerable time.

Of course I'm oh, what are they doing?

Or how the publishers supported them or I wonder if I could do as good as them.

That's okay.

And I take care of that little part of me who's just vulnerable and scared.

Like, you're doing so well, but it is that.

Amy, you're doing so well, but that is just none of your business.

Come back.

What are you doing?

How can you make an impact today?

Yeah.

In your book, in your latest book, you Have a two week reset process designed to help people to get back to creating and to overcome all of the potential limitations and the blocks that they might be experiencing.

Can you talk a little bit about the two week reset process?

Like what's its, what's its purpose and how does it work?

The idea with the two week reset is to make creativity very, very easy.

And I think so many of us think, oh my gosh, you know, I was writing that book and I was writing it for six years and I haven't written it for two years.

And like the idea of coming back to it is just like way too big.

Or I used to be a painter or I'm really interested in painting but like I would have no idea where to start.

The creative act again, because it's kind of been pedestal.

There's like this big thing that we have to over commit to.

I have to change our lives in order to become an artist.

It's like so intimidating.

So the two week reset is a way to just like with great ease, clock yourself back into the creative rhythms.

So whether you have a consistent practice and you've been away from it for a while, it just pulls you straight back in.

Whether you're just starting, it eases you into a creative practice that can blossom over time.

I think something that humans are just prone to is we feel like we have to go all in or go home.

The two week reset is just this very gentle easing into an abundant creative practice.

And it's going to test your ego because I'm asking you to do very little.

But it's also going to remind you that you're very, very capable.

And I don't want to talk too much about it because I think people.

Should buy the book.

And I'm like, do I just tell you?

No, no, no, no, you need to buy the book for that one.

But what you just said then, which is so relevant too is this idea of consistency over intensity.

Isn't it like, and that applies to so much of what we do in life.

We go, go big, big goals, overwhelming.

You know, we haven't even talked about perfectionism.

But small, small goals, small step, baby steps, baby steps, baby steps.

Shitty art, Shitty art.

Baby steps, shitty art.

These are the two keys to being a living a creative life.

This is how you become very successful.

Shitty art, baby steps.

And I not making a joke like that, is how you become a successful and joyful artist.

What's your advice for people who get stuck in that perfectionism?

You've got, you've got ideas about, you know, what perfectionism, which I do too, about what perfectionism is really about.

Yeah.

So what is your suggestion for people who get paralyzed by perfectionism?

Shitty art, A practical and very active thing to do is to make shitty art and to start teaching your body that is safe to create things to a very low standard.

So I'm always giving people like three minutes, just write a shitty poem, make some shitty art, and then I have to tell them again.

No.

I know that you're trying to think of how you can make it the least shitty version of this possible, but I'm actually asking you to make something really bad and seeing how your body feels and understanding what narratives are in your head, just listening to that perfectionist voice that occurs when you actually try and let yourself make mess.

Because we can again learn a lot about ourselves in that moment.

But most of us have grown up in a culture of perfectionism and that have demanded us to show up to a certain standard.

And it is creative poison because art requires many, many, many mistakes.

Art requires mass.

Art requires fuck ups and failures and things that don't work out.

But we've never allowed ourselves to do that and we don't feel safe when we do that.

And so there's also a lot of internal work I think you can do as well as just having a practice of Shadiya and teaching your body that it's safe to make things that don't hit your standards.

But there's a huge amount of internal work to do.

There are a lot of narratives to unpick.

Who is the voice in your head that is asking you to be a certain standard?

Like where do these stories come from?

Is it your mother?

Is it your father?

Is it a teacher?

Is it a more cultural, like general cultural voice?

Yeah.

And really speaking to that part of you that is trying to keep you safe by making you infallible.

Yes.

That's the gold nugget, the key, the staying safe.

I'm so glad that when you said that, you said make the shitty art and make it feel safe in your body.

Because to me that that's the point.

That's the conclusion that I've come to in all of the work that I've ever done.

Like we can go, we could spend our whole life exploring all of our childhood.

And it's important and it can be really helpful, I think, to understand those narratives and where they've come from that could, they can provide real light bulb moments when you start understanding what the stories are that you've been telling yourself.

That you don't necessarily have to believe anymore.

Like, oh, why?

Why do I think that's true when it's not?

But ultimately, like, I think that nervous system, like, feeling safe is the key.

Yeah.

Like, because it feels you, you.

You feel that whole body resistance.

Just like you want to run away.

Yeah.

People are like, why am I procrastinating?

What are you running from?

Yeah, you're running from the fear of not being good enough.

And that's that body response.

Like, I just have to.

Cannot sit in the seat.

I cannot.

I cannot.

Yeah, you're right.

Like, this is a lot of internal narrative work, but it is also a lot of body work.

And it's a lot of making sure that there's a sense of safety in our central nervous system as we create.

And I think it's interesting that one of the biggest reactions to the creative act is to get up, out, and just walk away.

Like, it's a literal flight response, procrastination.

It's like, nope, I'm done.

It is.

Or the writer's block, where you just stare at the screen.

A freeze response.

It's like, either get up and go or like, go into that dorsal response of just like, I'm out.

We need to.

It's.

I think oftentimes artists think or creative people think that this is just a cerebral activity.

It's all in the brain.

You're just a brain in a jar.

But you are creating with your whole body.

This is a collaborative effort, and you need to start paying attention to how you're feeling in those moments and taking care of the body through those moments.

Yeah.

What are some of your things that you do to regulate your own nervous system?

Yeah.

Big journey for me.

I've got anxiety and OCD and a history of depression, and I have a very sensitive nervous system.

So there's a huge amount of work for me there.

A lot of.

A lot of breathing.

I do a lot of yoga nidras during the day.

So, like, almost like.

How would you describe a yoga nidra?

It's like a sleep, sleep meditation almost.

Or it's like a non rest, deep sleep meditation, trying to bring my body back into a restorative state because I'm so easily moved into that fight or flight.

A lot of the time I'm just excited by my work, but I'm so often up here, like, beyond that kind of window of tolerance that I have.

So there's a lot of me just kind of trying to bring myself back down.

I have a lot of walking practices, a Lot of exercise, movement practices.

Most of my day is just me trying to regulate my body while also making art.

It's like a full time job singing, make it like, you know, making, moving, creating, making mess.

Yeah.

I have a lot of protocols that I have to go to because I have such a sensitive body.

This is so important though.

I can't do my creative work without having to cooperate with this very sensitive nervous system.

Right.

And I've said this once and it was actually very controversial and I didn't realize it was going to be.

But I said you can't create with a dysregulated nervous system.

And it got a lot of.

And I understand where people are coming from, but people were very triggered by this sentence because a lot of people use art to get out of the dysregulation.

So for me saying you can't create with dysregulated nervous system, they were thinking, you've just robbed me of my salve.

Right.

And that's not what I was trying to say.

I think for me, when I think about dysregulated nervous system, like I can't make stuff when I'm having a panic attack.

No.

You know, I think I was kind of thinking about that real talk, like when you're fully dysregulated, like the creative mind is not present and the creativity is a beautiful tool to slowly get yourself back into a regulated state.

But I think when you're really dysregulated, you're not here to make stuff, you're here to survive.

There's no creative act there.

And so we need to make sure that we do have methods to come down from up there or to come up from that dorsal state into a place where we're able to make stuff.

Yeah.

See, See what I was, was right when I said our work aligns so much.

I just had one other thing I meant to ask you earlier and that was when you first published your book, you self published.

Yeah.

And for many people, whether it still exists to the degree that it has in the past, I don't know.

But you know, for the, for the longest time that has been this.

Well, it's, it's real publishing.

Like it's, you're a real author.

If you get picked up and you get, you get a book deal and you get picked up by a publishing house.

Oh, yourself.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I would love to know, having had that experience.

Yeah.

What, what are your thoughts on that?

On self publishing?

What, how did that serve you?

What did you learn?

What's your recommendation to artists about potentially self publishing.

Self publishing was the best business decision of my life.

It was the best professional decision of my life.

It was the best decision for my mental health.

It was the best decision for me on my own journey of self development.

It is the reason why I'm here today, and it is the reason why I am so confident and so I'm my own biggest fan because of self publishing.

It was a way for me to choose myself before anybody else chose me.

And I think a lot of creatives spend our whole lives begging people to witness us and begging people to choose us.

Please can you pick me?

Please can you give me permission to do the thing I want to do?

Because that's how the systems have been set up, but the systems are changing and we are now allowed to choose ourselves and to take up space without permission.

And that is what self publishing is.

And there are equivalents in all different industries.

You can just take up space without anyone saying you're allowed to.

And so for me, I'd been asking for permission from gatekeepers for years and years, Hundreds and hundreds of rejection letters.

And there was a moment where I just realized, well, yeah, I've been rejected by them, but I'm also rejecting myself every day.

And that was way worse than having these publishers reject me.

I was saying, no, you're not good enough to take up space on your own.

And so I had to get over this huge narrative, which was to self publish means to fail.

To self publish means no one wants you.

And to realize that to self publish was a self anointing, it was a coronation.

And it was me saying, I know I have something to give.

I don't need permission to do it.

And so it was profound.

I can't say anything more than that, Cass.

Like, it was hard and I wanted support along the way that I didn't have.

I had to do it, you know, by myself.

Yeah.

And with my partner.

But again, the best business decision, best professional decision, best decision for Amy.

Yeah, yeah.

And I will do it again and again.

I'll continue to self publish.

Yeah.

It's so interesting.

I think, you know, now we are really.

That there is still that.

Oh, you know, everybody wants, like the big.

Not just any publisher, everyone wants to think five publishers.

Like, it's.

There's all of this, like, hierarchy.

Yes.

But more and more too.

People want to own their work.

People want to look at the independent podcasters.

Yes.

I've been with a network.

I really happy to be independently creating a podcast.

I have been With a traditional publisher I would be more than happy to self publish the next book.

I love the freedom and the control in that.

It's beautiful.

Yeah, I think that story needs to shift that self publishing is somehow.

It's getting there slowly.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It is getting there slowly.

And we're seeing a lot of the big authors now move to back to self publishing, which is very, very cool and gives us a lot of permission.

We have Brandon Sanderson who's like the biggest fantasy author of our time.

He's just gone back to self publishing and he self funded.

He crowdfunded his last like wow, I don't know how many novels.

It was like six novels and he raised like millions of dollars really.

People just wanted his books.

So it is an exciting space and we are changing that narrative but there is still a huge amount of snobbery around it.

But the truth is, is it's, I think it's the most creative way to take up space because you have so much creative control.

Having now moved through traditional publishing and self publishing, there's just so much more flexibility when you do it yourself.

And there is, you know, I was going to say there is more work.

There isn't.

There's just as much work for both traditional publishing and self publishing.

There's a huge like narrative that traditional publishing, they'll take away so much of the load.

The load.

It's a myth, I think.

Yeah.

Also for anybody listening, like, you know, when you hear about these advances that you get for publishing a book, well, you don't.

You get this, this much at signing of the contract and then you get this much when, when it goes to print you get this much like it drip feeds.

It certainly doesn't sustain you.

You can't go off to a, you know, resort in Spain for six months while you write your.

Yeah, there's a lot that's like just not told about the traditional publishing industry.

I didn't know that I was going to get my advance in four sections.

Some people get them in five and that's over years.

And I think that with royalties as well for self publishing, you know, we're still navigating really big shitty systems with Amazon and stuff.

If you choose to go through Amazon, which I did and it is like I have huge issues with that industry.

Yeah, yeah, but your royalty is going to be so much better.

You're not trying to earn out your.

Yes.

Advance.

My fiction that I self published, you know, just trickles in and it's a really consistent form of income for me.

And it would have never been that way had I had it gone through a traditional publisher.

In fact, my latest historical fiction books just been bought by a trad pub.

And it'll be very interesting to see just financially how different that does.

Yeah, very interesting.

Very interesting.

Yeah.

It's going to be very curious.

Amy, I'm conscious of time.

What is your one message that you would like to share with anybody who is listening, who is called to a creative life?

I'm just gonna go straight for the title of my book.

Yes, we need your art.

And I know it's very easy to say, no, you actually don't need my art.

I don't have anything good to say or what's the point?

Or no one listens to me.

We need your art.

You have something incredibly unique to say.

You are a one time phenomenon in this universe.

You have never been seen before in the history of humanity and you will never be seen again.

And it is worth your precious short time on earth to create things.

They will impact people.

They will change lives.

Please start taking up space.

Please start giving yourself the respect you deserve.

You have something important to say?

I love it.

Thank you, Amy.

And where can people.

I will put it in the show notes, but for people who want to connect with you, where should they go?

Where should they look?

Oh, tell me about your community, your collective, because people might want to jump on that as well.

Yeah.

So I have a creative community called the Inspired Collective and that's going to be opening up in March 2025.

So it only opens up twice a year.

But we are.

They're my family.

I see them every week on Sundays.

We either do a masterclass on a creative topic or we just create together and we just make stuff together.

And we alternate between those two things.

I speak to them all throughout the week.

We are family and I think when we do something as brave as making art, we need family.

Especially because a lot of people have just committed to misunderstanding what creative people are up to.

Because we're doing brave things, we're doing things out of the box and a lot of people are going to be like, okay, like they're just not going to understand what you're doing with your life.

So you need community around you who are going to respect your wild ideas and we're going to egg you on and we're going to champion you as you do brave art.

So that's in the Inspire Collective.

So it opens in March just as my book launches, actually.

So we're going to do A whole.

Yeah, we're going to do a whole semester of just working through the book together, actually, which is going to be really beautiful.

But if you want to find me on Instagram, I'm inspired to write.

My website is amymcne.com and you can get the book wherever you like to buy your book babies from, whether that's online or at your little independent bookstore.

And you have a podcast.

I do have a podcast called this Big List, Isn't It?

My podcast is the Unpublished Podcast, and I run that with my husband and author, Jamie Wine Stock.

And you have a substack.

And so do I as of this week.

Oh, my God, by the way, that's so exciting, Cass.

I know.

I.

Your book arrived at the perfect time because I just published my first substack.

I'm gonna get right on that as soon as I get out of this studio.

And.

Yeah, no, I started my substack and I found you on substack.

I love to hear it.

And you are the second podcast guest I have had who I discovered on Substance.

To me, it's an extremely exciting platform.

Love it.

Me too.

I had the best few months on there.

I probably joined six months ago.

Oh, delicious space for those who like to write.

Yes.

And I, you know, I'm in the process of extricating myself from Facebook and Instagram particularly, and substack is a nice alternative for me.

It's got a little community social media.

Social media is sort of vibe with the notes section, but just more high quality content and it's.

Yeah.

People want to think on that app.

Yes.

They want to share ideas.

Yes.

They want to discuss ideas.

Real beautiful.

Let's dive a little deeper.

Vibes.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, I really can't recommend South Stack more.

I'll link yours in the notes.

In the show notes as well.

I do really enjoy being there.

Thank you, Amy.

This has been a pleasure.

I appreciate you so much.

I'm so grateful for you.

Thank you for your art and we need your art.